UK Parliament / Open data

Terrorism (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 31 October 2005, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hain. The answering member was David Lidington.
Terrorism (Northern Ireland) Bill. Second reading debate. Agreed to on question. Programme motion on proceedings in Committee, Report stage and Third reading agreed to on question (formal).
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
438 c627-90 
Session
2005-06
Department
Northern Ireland Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Terrorism (Northern Ireland) Bill 2005-06. Explanatory notes Bill 52-EN also published.
Tuesday, 11 October 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Lord Hain | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful, Mr. Speaker. I shall certainly make arrangements for photocopies to be made available...
Speaker | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Secretary of State is indicating that he will do so.

Show all contributions (147)
Lord Hain | 438 c630 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Lady’s points, which she makes with her normal courtesy and force. However, it...
Lady Hermon | 438 c629-30 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking another intervention—it will be quick. He really ...
Lord Hain | 438 c630 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I dealt with that matter last week when I gave evidence to his Comm...
Lord Bannside | 438 c630 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that many people in Northern Ireland think that this “...
Lembit Opik | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) Given that the letter that the Secretary of State quotes is obviously of considerable importance to ...
Lord Hain | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I saw the letter only in the mid-morning. I have only h...
Lembit Opik | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In a sense I am making a procedural request, so perhaps I should...
Greg Mulholland | 438 c628 (Link to this contribution) I refer to the Carlile report and agree with the Secretary of State’s sentiments, but why are we hav...
Lord Hain | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) I received Lord Carlile’s letter only this morning. Obviously, the debate on Second Reading has been...
Julian Lewis | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) Did Lord Carlile’s letter indicate the sources from which he anticipated that further acts of terror...
Lord Hain | 438 c629 (Link to this contribution) No, the letter did not indicate that, but allow me to cite another of the important points in Lord ...
Lord Hain | 438 c627-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Before I turn to the Bill itself, I should ...
John Bercow | 438 c628 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Secretary of State’s opening remarks. Will the order-making power in clause 1(3) be su...
Shaun Woodward | 438 c689-90 (Link to this contribution) I was unaware of the dinner tomorrow night. I believe that such an issue would be a matter for Capit...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c676-7 (Link to this contribution) It is always helpful whenever people who oppose my party ask questions, and I am happy to answer the...
Mark Durkan | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend in his appeal to the hon. Member for Foyle.
Mark Durkan | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) is right. Our misgivings and criticism are not of t...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) I want to get on, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to say yes, that will be quick and allow me to mov...
Lord Bannside | 438 c677-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) will know, as the world knows, that this lady is only temp...
Peter Robinson | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) : I am a little concerned and I wonder whether my hon. Friend shares my concern. The victims commi...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c678 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the exchanges. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) seeks to intervene on my h...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c677 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has an insight that no one else has. He thinks that the Government...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c678-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving that support to the victims commissioner, which will be of gre...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c689 (Link to this contribution) The Minister referred a moment ago to the need for even-handedness and sensitivity. He might not be ...
Shaun Woodward | 438 c687-9 (Link to this contribution) That will be decided by leave of the Chair, but we would welcome such discussion, not only in Commit...
Lembit Opik | 438 c687 (Link to this contribution) The Under-Secretary makes a reasonable point and he is right to be cautious. Will he agree to hold a...
Shaun Woodward | 438 c686-7 (Link to this contribution) We have had a good debate and I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. The hon. Member for ...
Laurence Robertson | 438 c684-6 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington). We regret the necessity for ...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c679-80 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention. I trust that it helps the Minister to exercise...
David Simpson | 438 c679 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. Up to the end of September, I think that 14 security force member famil...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c679 (Link to this contribution) Yes. It is serious. The threat of death is still upon the head of members of the security forces and...
Greg Mulholland | 438 c671-2 (Link to this contribution) Shortly before the start of the new Parliament, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely...
Peter Robinson | 438 c669 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it is unrealistic to think that if organisations, whether the IRA or ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c669-71 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who makes an extremely important point, which was the subject ...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c676 (Link to this contribution) I did not catch the question, but there has been a constant flow of concessions to the IRA. That is ...
Mark Durkan | 438 c676 (Link to this contribution) I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman’s disdain for secret deals and secret understandings on what el...
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown | 438 c674-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr. Campbell). As has alrea...
Lembit Opik | 438 c676 (Link to this contribution) Although I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s advice for us to be cautious and to require proof, why do...
Mark Durkan | 438 c655 (Link to this contribution) First, I have discussed the problems associated with gathering evidence, of which the McCartney case...
Gregory Campbell | 438 c656 (Link to this contribution) I share many of the hon. Gentleman’s reservations about Community Restorative Justice. Can he not ...
Mark Durkan | 438 c655-6 (Link to this contribution) That is another matter. It is their choice. Discussions are in progress involving Sinn Fein—perhaps...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c657 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman can hardly blame Unionists for seeking to extract from the Government movement on...
Mark Durkan | 438 c656-7 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. We need to be cautious at all times—but cautious in ways that als...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c657 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the hon. Gentleman’s references to inclusivity. He claims that everyone should ...
Mark Durkan | 438 c657 (Link to this contribution) Not everyone in Northern Ireland is at it. Some of us have said all along that the process should al...
Mark Durkan | 438 c657 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is wrong: I supported no such thing. The American consulate and others will con...
Lady Hermon | 438 c655 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the difficulty lies with the judiciary or with the lack of evi...
Lembit Opik | 438 c651 (Link to this contribution) In that case, will the hon. Gentleman explain why so many hon. Members in these debates feel that th...
Lembit Opik | 438 c650-1 (Link to this contribution) If I were a parliamentary representative in the south of Ireland, I would be making exactly the sa...
Lembit Opik | 438 c652-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman gives one example of many that at times serve to undermine our confidence that th...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c652 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a prime example of this differentiation that the Government make ...
Lembit Opik | 438 c652 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s comments simply serve to underline the frustration that many of us feel about t...
Mark Durkan | 438 c653-5 (Link to this contribution) I regret that the House has to debate this Bill. Like many Members, I want normalisation in its full...
Lembit Opik | 438 c653 (Link to this contribution) Answering that in detail would take us way beyond the remit of the Bill. The hon. Lady’s comments, a...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c666-9 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by referring to terrorist and paramilitary developments in Northern Ireland in recent da...
Christopher Fraser | 438 c665-6 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak after some first-class contributions by people who know far more about this subject ...
Lord Cormack | 438 c662-5 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) on his forthcoming elevation to...
Lord Bannside | 438 c660-2 (Link to this contribution) Of course it does. I have said to the Government, as I am sure the Secretary of State will remember,...
Peter Robinson | 438 c660 (Link to this contribution) If, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, South (Mr. Harris) says, it will never be possible for us to be ...
Lord Bannside | 438 c660 (Link to this contribution) When the violence has ceased, everyone in Northern Ireland will know that it has ceased. Some of us ...
Lord Bannside | 438 c659-60 (Link to this contribution) The Bill introduced to the House stands in stark contrast to what the Government have been saying to...
Mark Durkan | 438 c657-9 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. At the heart of the Bill is the integrity and reliability of the ope...
David Lidington | 438 c641-2 (Link to this contribution) We should extend the powers if that is necessary to provide the protection that is needed by the p...
David Lidington | 438 c642-3 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will not, as I would like other hon. Members, particularly those...
Lembit Opik | 438 c643 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Does the hon. Gentleman not sometimes feel that it is by being stroppy and naughty that one ...
David Lidington | 438 c643 (Link to this contribution) The Government should share their thoughts with Parliament in the very near future and give us ample...
David Lidington | 438 c641 (Link to this contribution) I see no problem in principle with that. The position of my party has always been that we regard jur...
Meg Hillier | 438 c641 (Link to this contribution) You highlighted some of the things that the Government could be doing and I was interested in your r...
Speaker | 438 c641 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady must be careful about using the word ““you””.
Meg Hillier | 438 c641 (Link to this contribution) Forgive me, Mr. Speaker. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, in an ideal world, his party would prefe...
Lord Bannside | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) It should also be underlined that the family is now driven out of the area completely. The last memb...
David Lidington | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is again right. The fact that members of the McCartney family have had to move ho...
Lord Bannside | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best test to which the IRA could be put would be to ask it to...
David Lidington | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. Although I have genuinely welcomed the statements and actions that have...
Lord Cormack | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) : Is not the way in which people have behaved towards the McCartney family another aspect of terrori...
David Lidington | 438 c639-41 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend puts it very well. We require a profound ideological change from an organisation tha...
Julian Lewis | 438 c638-9 (Link to this contribution) : Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a third possible reason why the IRA might be reluctant to...
David Lidington | 438 c639 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is undoubtedly right. Republican and loyalist paramilitary groups use crime as a mean...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c637-8 (Link to this contribution) : Coming from Belfast, North, which has suffered terribly because of the feud, I associate myself wi...
David Lidington | 438 c638 (Link to this contribution) The quest for justice must certainly continue and no Government of any political colour could ever b...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c648-9 (Link to this contribution) Constant reference is being made to violence on the loyalist side over the summer—it is quite right ...
Lady Hermon | 438 c646-7 (Link to this contribution) There are two points to be made, as there are two sets of allowances. The allowance to the Sinn Fein...
Speaker | 438 c647 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions are getting longer and longer. I think that the hon. Member for Glasgow, South ...
Tom Harris | 438 c647 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Lady’s frustration at that development. My view, but possibly not the Governme...
Lembit Opik | 438 c647-8 (Link to this contribution) I spoke during the debate on the Second Reading of the Terrorism Act 2000, and specifically about pa...
Tom Harris | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) In making a passing comment, I feel as though I have kicked a wasps’ nest. The hon. Gentleman is cor...
Lord Bannside | 438 c645-6 (Link to this contribution) : May I remind the hon. Gentleman of the conference at Leeds castle? The DUP set out its plan ho...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) : I understand where the hon. Gentleman is coming from on this point, but does he recognise that one...
Tom Harris | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) Decommissioning was included in the agreement, but the disbandment of the IRA was not. We would all ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) : This is a very important issue. Surely the hon. Gentleman is not taking a softer line than the M...
Tom Harris | 438 c644-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is quite correct. She has been present in the House when I have said on more than one ...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) : Total decommissioning was not in the Belfast agreement.
Tom Harris | 438 c643-4 (Link to this contribution) It is more than two years since I was given the opportunity to speak on Northern Ireland matters bef...
Lady Hermon | 438 c644 (Link to this contribution) : May I firmly but gently remind the hon. Gentleman that great offence was caused by the long-awaite...
Lord Cormack | 438 c643 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. Does he agree that if ever a subject lent itself to...
David Lidington | 438 c643 (Link to this contribution) I agree. The Government have shown good sense and proper caution in introducing this Bill today to ...
Lord Hain | 438 c630-1 (Link to this contribution) The soon-to-be right hon. Gentleman makes a point about a judgment on this matter. We are right to b...
Lord Hain | 438 c633 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point that that hon. Lady is making in defence of the Ulster Unionist party, which ...
Lady Hermon | 438 c632-3 (Link to this contribution) Before the Secretary of State moves on to more details about the normalisation programme that he has...
Lord Hain | 438 c632 (Link to this contribution) First, I acknowledge the particular work that the hon. Gentleman has put into this matter. I know of...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c632 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about the Royal Irish Regiment. We have been meetin...
Lord Hain | 438 c632 (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that the pro-agreement parties were consulted and gave their general endorsement to th...
Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 438 c631 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State refers to the triggering of the implementation of the so-called normalisati...
Lord Hain | 438 c631 (Link to this contribution) The Bill creates an enabling environment. That is why the time frame is put in the way that it is. ...
Baroness Burt of Solihull | 438 c633 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State aware that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has called for the...
Julian Lewis | 438 c633 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State will recall that I asked him whether Lord Carlile’s letter indicated where he...
Lord Hain | 438 c633 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that Members who represent constituencies in Northern Ireland will agree that there is now...
Nicholas Winterton | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) Many Conservative Members will support the legislation because we believe that it is beyond belief t...
Lord Hain | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) I think that that point is rather different from the one that the hon. Gentleman raised earlier, but...
Lord Bannside | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) : If the Secretary of State is of a mind to appoint more judges in Northern Ireland, will he assure ...
Lord Hain | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s points about transparency. In an ideal world, that would have been...
Lembit Opik | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) : On Diplock courts, I am grateful to the Secretary of State for ensuring that we have all received ...
Lord Hain | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman is not a great fan of the 50:50 principle, because he has frequently ...
Lady Hermon | 438 c634-5 (Link to this contribution) : I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State, who has been very generous in taking interventi...
Lord Hain | 438 c634 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, Diplock courts operate very rarely indeed. The situation is transformed from years a...
Lady Hermon | 438 c635 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State must clarify the issue, which is crucial and impinges on other provisions in ...
Lord Hain | 438 c635 (Link to this contribution) It is because there are no guarantees of an absolute, final kind that we are introducing the Bill, w...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c637 (Link to this contribution) : I can appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s scepticism, which is shared on these Benches, about statemen...
David Lidington | 438 c636-7 (Link to this contribution) I begin by associating the Opposition with the Secretary of State’s words of thanks and appreciation...
Lord Hain | 438 c635-6 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but we have developed a procedure for handling these matters in...
Tom Harris | 438 c635 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for clarifying the procedure. He has said that a statutory ins...
David Lidington | 438 c637 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Secretary of State and am grateful for those remarks.
Lord Hain | 438 c637 (Link to this contribution) May I associate myself with the hon. Gentleman’s point and agree with those that the hon. Member...
David Lidington | 438 c637 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to associate myself with the hon. Gentleman’s tribute to the clergymen and community lead...
Lord Hain | 438 c628 (Link to this contribution) The affirmative procedure will be used, given the importance attached to that matter. Those provisi...
Lord Cormack | 438 c630 (Link to this contribution) Does not what the Secretary of State has said this afternoon, and indeed his reply to the hon. Membe...
Mark Durkan | 438 c677 (Link to this contribution) I reassure the hon. Gentleman that I have not attacked the concept of a victims commissioner. When...
Gregory Campbell | 438 c672-4 (Link to this contribution) Given the disparate nature of political opinion in the House, it is pleasing to hear the degree of c...
Tom Harris | 438 c660 (Link to this contribution) I worry that the hon. Gentleman’s argument means that we will never be able to say that the IRA has ...
Lady Hermon | 438 c641 (Link to this contribution) : Since the hon. Gentleman’s party has shown a notable reluctance in the House to support any Govern...
Tom Harris | 438 c646 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will not catch me trying to justify or defend the appalling behaviour of Sinn Fei...
Tom Harris | 438 c645 (Link to this contribution) I am certainly not suggesting that the IRA, with its current structure, could be maintained in a dem...
Lady Hermon | 438 c631 (Link to this contribution) May I sum up the message coming from the Secretary of State? We are taking the Bill through the Hous...
Jeffrey M Donaldson | 438 c680-4 (Link to this contribution) I have listened with interest to many contributions, particularly that of the Secretary of State. ...
Meg Hillier | 438 c653 (Link to this contribution) I am very puzzled by some of the hon. Gentleman’s comments. With whom is he suggesting that the Go...
Lembit Opik | 438 c649-50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is completely right to put that on record. People who live on the mainland of ...
Lord Bannside | 438 c650 (Link to this contribution) Would it not be right to underline the fact that the provision was copied from the law in the south ...
Lord Hain | 438 c635 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, I am confident that we are seeing an end to paramilitarism, and it is extremely unli...
Tom Harris | 438 c651-2 (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene and I shall try not to stray too much from the purpose of the debate...
Speaker | 438 c657 (Link to this contribution) Order. Before we get too involved in this matter, may we perhaps return to the Bill? That would be h...
Subjects
Admissibility of evidence
Bail
Administration of justice
Arrests
Decommissioning
Army
Juries
Evidence
Emergency powers
Intimidation
Northern Ireland
Police
Organised crime
Powers
Proscribed organisations
Sentencing
Vetting
Terrorism
Security
Regulation
Trials
Anti-terrorism control orders
Independent Assessor of Military Complaints Procedures in Northern Ireland
Scheduled offences
Legislation
Terrorism (Northern Ireland) Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top