Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

My Lords, following our debate on Report, I return to an amendment which concerns a new clause that I propose to insert into the Bill. I feel that there is something very familiar about this exercise, as my hero, my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf, has just argued a very simple amendment with huge implications, which is what I feel I have been trying to do during debate on this matter. I have been careful to follow the rules governing amendments at this stage of the Bill, and I am grateful for the Public Bill Office's advice and help in drafting this amendment. It has meant focusing on one particular aspect which I did not fully explore earlier—namely, expenses—and seeking clarification on some of the Minister's remarks. In this redrafted amendment, I am requesting that the Lord Chancellor should publish guidance for probation trusts on how magistrates can claim reimbursement for the costs of visits to community projects and programmes. I wonder whether this could be done through Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service, as has, I understand, been under consideration lately. If there is to be no statutory liaison for the time being between the magistracy and the probation service, which is what I was seeking, it is still essential that the costs of visits should be reimbursed so that magistrates can see and believe for themselves what local community projects and programmes consist of. There is, quite simply, no better way, even if only one or two visits are made each year. Given that the role and work of magistrates in the court-room is entirely voluntary, they really should be supported in informing themselves, through local visits, of what their sentencing options are. I cannot emphasise how important engaging with the participants is in understanding what is being delivered. We all want and need magistrates to make informed decisions if the goal of reducing reoffending is to be realised, so this sort of engagement is really important. I should like to seek clarification from the Minister on some of the sympathetic remarks that she made on Report. She mentioned, without specifying them, meetings between probation trust boards and magistrates and pointed out that ““they””—the magistrates— "““can, in fact, claim expenses from the probation trusts in attending these meetings. This is an area where the Government might assist by doing more to publicise the process if magistrates are unaware of it. We will certainly consider, as a practical approach, encouraging better liaison by publicising this””." This comment caused an immediate debate the following day between magistrates and probation about the meetings she was referring to. They concluded that they are the meetings of probation trust boards which magistrates can attend and for which they can claim expenses. Guidance has been carefully laid down by the senior presiding judge Lord Justice Goldring on this: magistrates can attend but solely as advisers or observers—nothing to do with visiting projects or even talking about them. The exception is when magistrates sit exclusively in the Family Proceedings Court and may become formal members, but only in a private capacity, not representing the judiciary. Furthermore, he advised that there should not be more than two members on a trust, which means a total of 70 magistrates throughout the land from the 35 trusts, which is hardly a significant number out of 29,000 magistrates. This is the only formal contract that results in any payment of expenses that they could think of. It is also quite a different process to any arrangements that magistrates might be able to make to visit programmes, which are custodial alternatives and my chief concern. If I have misunderstood, I should be grateful if my noble friend would clarify the point. I would also mention that the National Sentencer and Probation Forum—another body—is a management forum consisting of three senior magistrates, two chiefs of probation, two judges and some civil servants. I believe that it discusses issues of performance, commissioning, et cetera, and meets quarterly. Until I had read the briefing for this debate, I did not know of this body's existence. As a somewhat remote management group, does the Minister think that this is the appropriate body to carry forward magistrates' engagement with their local provision of programmes, or deal with expenses. When my noble friend the Minister said that, "““it is important that magistrates see for themselves the work of probation trusts””," it seemed that my argument had been heard in part. For that, I am truly grateful. However, she went further and said: "““We will look to see if there is more that we can do to ensure that best practice is brought to the attention of probation trusts””." Will she also clarify that comment? I presume she meant that it is brought to the attention of magistrates, as it is the trusts which provide the programmes that magistrates may find suitable for disposal once they have seen them. Could she also say exactly what she means by ““best practice””, which is at the heart of the matter if we are to improve understanding and prevent reoffending, which is seriously important. She said: "““We are also ready to work with the Magistrates' Association and others to ensure that we have practical arrangements in hand to encourage magistrates to take part in meetings so that information can be exchanged””." Will she clarify what sort of meetings they might be? That has the potential to be helpful. When she noted that, "““the amendment does not ensure that magistrates attend these meetings … it instead places a duty on probation trusts to provide information””.—[Official Report, 20/3/12; cols. 787-88.]" I am not clear about the nature of the meetings she has in mind. However, I am, of course, aware that probation trusts can only provide information and the option to visit, so for magistrates to get information that way. They could not be expected to require magistrates to attend any meeting. This discussion made me wonder inter alia what would happen if the existing training arrangements for Crown Court judges called, continuation courses, and which of course are compulsory, were voluntary and left to individual choice. What would happen then? Perhaps something similar in terms of dropping attendance? However, it is unimaginable that these courses should not be required for judges, and I believe that they should be for magistrates. Given the positive assurances that my noble friend gave in her earlier responses, will she now confirm the timescales for what she suggested the Government have in mind? We all know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions—and I am quite sure that the Government have no intention of going down that road. It is important that we should all be given a clear indication of what to expect from the practical suggestions that she made. I was grateful for the receptiveness of her responses on Report, and I hope that we will hear more, bearing in mind that not a single substantial argument against my case was raised in the House or outside it, except by the Government, who appeared to feel that my amendment was not necessary because of the obstacles that they discerned. The rest of us beg to differ—and I beg to move.