Scotland Bill

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question and I shall endeavour, if I may, to deal with those issues in the thread of my argument, because I will deal with them. I apologise if I am engaging your Lordships' House for a period of time on this, but it is important. I want to make this argument in its entirety so, if I may, I shall make it in the order in which I have thought about it. Not only did the Calman review report, and not only did successive UK Governments welcome that report and start the process of implementing the recommendations—I say at this point that when it comes to the detail of the debate, I will be probing whether we have been true to Calman in some regards, because that is quite important—but we put this issue to the Scottish Parliament. I say ““we put this issue””; the issue was put to the Scottish Parliament. We have a Bill that is largely faithful to Calman. Calman is, in my view, well argued and well explained. I know that all noble Lords do not agree with that, but we will have a debate about it. That Bill has been through a process in the Scottish Parliament, and this is important. On 10 March 2011, the Scottish Parliament, on a cross-party basis, which this time included the Scottish nationalists, voted in favour of a legislative consent Motion supporting this Bill—not precisely this Bill, but largely this Bill. It made certain recommendations and asked that the Government and the UK Parliament take those recommendations into account. In other words, it voted in favour of that with conditions, and Alex Salmond himself voted in favour of that Motion on the basis of those conditions, so we have a legislative consent Motion from the Scottish Parliament which Alex Salmond voted in favour of. Those conditions have largely been met. In fact, the amendments to the Bill, and the reason that the Bill arguably has to go back for a further legislative consent Motion, are substantially because of the conditions that the Scottish Parliament asked to be considered that are now reflected in amendments to the Bill. In 2011, Alex Salmond said that he was in favour of this Bill, if the Government did certain things with it. Substantially, those things have been done, as we will no doubt uncover when we debate this in Committee and on Report, and now there appears to be some question mark about whether the Parliament, which his party controls, is prepared to give that amended Bill consent. I do not know whether this is unparliamentary language in your Lordships' House, but it seems hypocritical in the extreme for him, having voted for it, to reject the Bill at this stage. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, essentially argued for postponement of the legislation pending a further legislative consent Motion from the Scottish Parliament. Although it has not yet surfaced—it will in this debate—there are others who believe that this Bill should be dropped as the pending referendum in Scotland makes it irrelevant. There are others, as we have heard, who think that the Bill does not go far enough and that Scotland has moved on in the comparatively short period since Calman—I would need to be persuaded—and that we should think about even deeper devolution. Some suggest a postponement or some device of postponement until after the current consultations on the process for the referendum are concluded. These suggestions may on the surface individually appear appealing, but in my view they do a disservice to the people of Scotland for two main reasons. The first is because delay or postponement would be to ignore the express wishes of those elected to represent the people of Scotland. The democratically elected Scottish Parliament provided the impetus for this Bill through its original Motion back in 2007, the democratically elected UK Parliament passed this Bill in the other place in 2011, and the democratically elected Scottish Parliament overwhelmingly supported the Bill the last time it passed the legislative consent Motion in 2011. The democratically elected representatives of all the major parties in Scotland—Scottish Labour, the nationalists, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives—have voted in support of this Bill. The people of Scotland want this Bill to pass. Overwhelmingly, they are supportive of the additional powers for the Scottish Parliament, and the people tell us that some of those powers are urgently needed. For this House to postpone this Bill would be to ignore the wishes of the people of Scotland and the faith that they have put in their elected representatives, and I do not want to see that happen. The second reason is because a number of the elements of the Bill could be implemented quickly and, if they were, could be implemented to the benefit of the people of Scotland. The Bill, if passed, will give the Scottish Parliament the power to tackle the scourge of drink-driving head on. We are told, and I agree, that Scotland in large part has a problem with drink and drunkenness. The Scottish Parliament has wrestled unsuccessfully thus far with trying, through devices, to reduce the consumption of alcohol in Scotland and its effects. In the Bill, we are offering the people of Scotland an opportunity to do something very specific, which I understand that the people of Northern Ireland are already consulting on: reducing the drink-driving limit and therefore restricting or limiting the effect of drink, at least in that area. This could be done very quickly. Where from those who govern Scotland at the moment in relation to these issues is there any sign that they are preparing themselves for this power, which they could have comparatively quickly and could implement in line with their policy? It is nowhere. They could be at this moment consulting on these issues or setting up a consultation, and then they could have a power. We should point that out to them. We should point out to them that the people of Scotland will not forgive them if they have to wait for a decade or so for the implementation of changes such as this that people in Scotland think could be to their benefit. The borrowing powers in the Bill are wanted by the people of Scotland and would give the Scottish Government greater influence over the pace and priorities of Scotland's capital investment programme, we are told in their official response to Calman. I think we probably all agree that that would be the case. If they had borrowing powers, it would give them opportunities that they presently do not have. Those opportunities are much needed now, not in 10 or 15 years’ time. Alex Salmond has said that borrowing powers are necessary to boost economic activity in Scotland and to give the Scottish Parliament the levers to shape Scotland's future. He has demanded that these powers be devolved, and he has said that they should be devolved quickly. The Bill does exactly that. We should, therefore, pass it so that these powers can be available and can be used as soon as possible for the betterment of Scotland and its people. If they are not, the Scottish people will know who decided not to take them. Further, the devolution of stamp duty land tax will potentially give the Scottish Government a significant lever to stimulate the Scottish housing sector or encourage the appropriate development of land. On Saturday I went to St Mirren Park to watch the football. Those of you who know Paisley will know that St Mirren recently built a new stadium and abandoned their traditional heartland stadium at Love Street in the centre of Paisley. It was sold to either a developer or a supermarket, I am not sure. Apparently the current economic circumstances do not encourage the development of this site. Consequently, it has been lying derelict in the heart of one of our great cities for years, and looks as though it will lie derelict, falling apart, for a lot longer. I can think of many such examples in the centre of cities and on brownfield sites up and down Scotland. I am not here to try to develop a stamp duty land tax approach to deal with that, but it is an opportunity and I am sure that those who understand this area of law much better than I do can think of other opportunities where these powers available to Scotland now could be used to provide stimulus to the economy and opportunities for the Scottish people. This opportunity is wanted; it was recommended by Calman and accepted by the previous Government and the coalition Government. If they want it, it is there, and if they do not use it the Scottish people need to know who was responsible for that, and that it was not the unelected Chamber of the UK Parliament. These are significant powers and they could be put to use now or in a comparatively short period of time. I am mindful of the right reverend Prelate’s question, which I thought was an exceptionally good one, and I will be delighted if the Minister is able to answer it. We in Scotland know that the timetable for some of these powers is urgent and we need to get them while thinking about them is still fresh in people’s minds, and while there is still an opportunity that we can use them in some way to redress the consequences that Scotland is suffering quite significantly as a result of the current recession and of some other policies of certain Governments. Not only should we be anxious to complete the passage of this legislation but we should be challenging the Scottish Parliament to move quickly to complete the process by an LCM. In the mean time, there are serious questions to be asked and I will be asking them, through the Minister, of the Scottish Government’s preparedness to use these powers. Why are they not preparing now to use the powers that are being offered to them, which they say the Scottish people want and need? There is one further reason to progress with this Bill. If we do not, we will play directly into the hands of the separatists; we will present those advocating an agenda of separation with an open goal. They will say that those in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK cannot be trusted; that those in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK offer with one hand and take away with the other. That may not be true, but postponement creates an opportunity in a Scottish politics that has a vocabulary and a tone the flavour of which your Lordships have heard some of this afternoon. That opportunity will be seized, and we should not present it if we do not need to. We cannot and we must not play into the hands of this argument. To paraphrase my noble friend Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale when he spoke at Second Reading, we must not sleepwalk our way to separation. We should be very careful about everything we do. We on this side of the House will forensically and carefully scrutinise this Bill. A number of difficult questions need to be asked—and answered. I will come to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in a minute as my peroration. This House is rightly respected for its approach to the scrutiny and review of legislation, and that should continue. However, as I said at Second Reading, on this side of the House, we want to get on with this but the tests we will apply are essentially whether or not this is to the benefit of the people of Scotland. The ““small”” point that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, drew our attention to some one hour and 47 minutes ago is, as everyone has said, an arguable point and I am not dismissing it. I think it is a legitimate point but it has a history. Whether or not that point can be answered, I believe the reasons I have set out about the interests of the people of Scotland and the politics of the current situation demand that we should continue. But I believe and hope there is an answer to the noble Lord’s point. In the first place, I cannot discern any clear pattern as to when legislative consent Motions are passed by the Scottish Parliament. They appear to have been passed at different times in relation to the passage of legislation in the United Kingdom Parliament but, as I have pointed out, we already have one. It must have been passed after the Bill came from the other place—or was it while it was still there? My understanding is that discussions are continuing between the UK and Scottish Governments, no doubt including the Parliament, about these issues. In the absence of an indication from the Minister that we should be optimistic that there will be a legislative consent Motion, there is no obvious cause for optimism, and the committee report of the Scottish Parliament tends the other way. Equally, because of the history of the Scottish Parliament’s treatment of this Bill, in my view there are no persuasive signs for pessimism either. I believe that political and other circumstances can be created, and we can contribute to them, where the Scottish Parliament feels compelled to consistency. It will be difficult for individuals and parties in the Scottish Parliament to explain to the people of Scotland why they have refused to take these powers that only months ago they said they wanted. I cannot guarantee that there will be a legislative consent Motion, but I can guarantee that we have an opportunity to create the circumstances where it becomes more likely than not. I ask the Minister, in the way in which we scrutinise and debate this Bill, to approach everything he says from that perspective. I believe that if the manifest abilities and experiences of people in this House approach these issues from that perspective, we can make a substantial contribution to the future of the people of Scotland; and that we will do our bit to ensure that, when they are asked whatever question they are asked, they overwhelmingly tell us that they want to stay in the United Kingdom.