Scotland Bill

My Lords, I have great sympathy with the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because it appears that we are putting the cart before the horse. Nevertheless, I have to say that I do not think that the full implications of what is proposed have sunk in for people. I have a very simple question. If the people of Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, how can we have a United Kingdom if one of the kingdoms has left? What will we be called? What is Great Britain without Scotland? What will that be called? A lot of comment has been made about the First Minister personally. I think we should get away from that and forget about the individual. We are talking about the future of more than 60 million of us. We are literally all in this together in every sense. Think of the situation that my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and I would be in. We would have a foreign country on one side of us and a foreign country on the other side of us. We would end up like West Pakistan. We are all hewn from the same rock. Imagine the circumstances we would be placed in. We have just spent decades overcoming nationalist terrorism and we have gradually, after years and years, managed to settle down our community. I do not wish to exaggerate, but if the Scottish nationalists were to succeed it could reignite the difficulties that we have just managed to overcome. I do not say that lightly. Having spent many years negotiating with Irish nationalists of different stripes, I have to say that we have got to get the tone of the debate right. We should not hector nor bully the Scottish people. We must not, we cannot; if we do, we do so at our peril. We will not win the argument by saying, ““You’re going to be impoverished here””. Any group of people who are determined enough can be independent. They may not have the same standard of living, but they can be independent and survive. There is an emotional issue here which we have to get our heads around. That is where the debate will be won or lost. The people of Scotland are proud. They are proud of their history: look what they have brought to the world, whether in writing, engineering, opening up an empire, on the battlefield or economically—the list goes on. We are not selling the point that together, collectively as a nation, we have done great things together. I cannot see how we can allow an argument to be based around an individual. There are good social, economic and emotional arguments to deploy as to why the United Kingdom has been a most successful venture in the mutual interests of all of us. Let us forget the First Minister. He is part of it, yes. I take very carefully the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, about the legalities, but from looking back on the Irish nationalist struggle, the question will never be settled or won in the courts; it has to be won in the hearts of all of us. That is the advice I give noble Lords, having, as I said, sat across the table from people of a totally different persuasion for many years in deep, detailed negotiation. The tone of the negotiation, the tone of the argument and the emotion of it must be at the forefront of people's minds. If we get into the legalities and technicalities, we are losing the argument. Yes, the foundations have to be laid at the start. I totally support that, but when we get past that, as I hope we will, let us concentrate on selling the positive case that there is for the United Kingdom and not trying to put people down by saying, ““If you do not remain part of the United Kingdom, you will be eating grass””. That is not an argument that we have to deploy. We have plenty of arguments and a wonderful country to put the case for. Let us do that. That is the basis on which the argument should be made.