Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

I accept what the noble Lord says on that and do not dispute it at all. I support the principle of a sobriety scheme that seeks to tackle the problems caused by alcohol-related offending—particularly by binge drinking, which can blight communities—but I must still resist these amendments. Contrary to what the noble Baroness has said, an effective and robust sobriety scheme can be implemented using existing powers. Piloting this approach will provide us with firmer evidence on which to consider the need for legislative changes such as those proposed. I believe that a scheme could be started almost immediately. My noble friend raised a number of concerns about piloting a sobriety scheme using conditional cautions. I wish to take a moment to focus on those. A scheme based on conditional cautions which is already on the statute book is favoured by the Government. Indeed, there is already interest in some parts of the country in looking at a scheme based on conditional cautions. However, I understand that London supports the scheme put forward by the noble Baroness. It has been suggested that conditional cautions would not allow repeat offenders to be targeted by a sobriety scheme. While serious and persistent offenders should obviously be prosecuted at court, conditional cautions can be considered where an offender has committed previous offences. For example, a pattern of alcohol-related offending which has previously resulted in an offender receiving a penalty notice for disorder, a simple caution or perhaps even being prosecuted for a low-level offence may well be appropriate for a sobriety condition as part of a conditional caution. It has also been suggested that offenders are unlikely to consent to a sobriety condition, but I believe that many will consent when they are informed by the police and the Crown Prosecution Service that the alternative is to be prosecuted for their conduct and to face the prospect of the prosecution applying for a drinking banning order on conviction. In these circumstances I believe that very many offenders will consider that accepting a sobriety condition—which can include requirements to undergo testing, and to pay for those tests, and which has clear consequences for non-compliance—is by far the preferable option. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about the educational aspect and the right reverend Prelate talked about a change of culture. As I hope I have already reassured the House, I am adamant that we will pursue a change of culture. I will not go into too much detail because I have probably said this two or three times now, but I find it unacceptable that we have a culture in this country whereby it is acceptable for people to be seriously drunk in public places either as individuals or collectively. That is a significant change of culture that many of us have witnessed in our lifetime. Using the toolkit—that is the terminology—I am looking for every opportunity to change that culture. I do not underestimate how long that will take as the problem has taken decades to present itself as we see it now, but I hope to impact on it as much as possible. I note the changes that the noble Baroness has made to her amendments since they were previously discussed. I also note that she and the Deputy Mayor of London have received legal advice on the amendments. There were question marks over the differing legal advice that the Home Office and the Deputy Mayor of London had received, particularly around matters to do with offenders’ convention rights. Although I agree that a sobriety scheme as the noble Baroness envisages it could be compatible with an offender’s convention rights, I believe that any primary legislation in this area would require careful consideration about when such a scheme would be proportionate and what safeguards might be needed to ensure that a court does not impose an alcohol monitoring requirement that risks breaching an individual’s human rights. This is a difficult area and one which the results of piloting conditional cautions would help to illuminate, as well as providing us with evidence of the scheme’s effectiveness. I have touched on the issue of treatment leading to recovery, which is the Government’s aim. As has been mentioned, extremely serious criminal consequences can arise from alcohol abuse. It is important to distinguish between what we might euphemistically describe as binge drinking and those very serious crimes, in which I of course include domestic violence, where the way forward may well be a conviction. Whether it is associated with a conviction or not, it will require a most extensive package to address what are often the complex needs of the offender. Two pilots are beginning in October and another four in April that will seek to address some of the more complex conditions for both drugs and alcohol. We have identified a way forward. I have already had interesting meetings with those running the two pilots beginning in October to see how they will address that. I find it extremely reassuring that the pilot schemes will address not just the addiction—whether it is drugs, alcohol or a combination of the two—but will look holistically at moving people from treatment to recovery, with all the complex needs that must be addressed. Sometimes it is not just a question of the dependency on alcohol—or alcoholism, as we might describe it, which is perhaps very different from binge drinkers who would not be clinically defined as alcoholic. When we start to look at serious crime associated with alcohol, we are dealing with alcoholism as we would understand it. That requires a lot more than just treatment. People need to be able to keep a roof over their head and to manage their relationships. It is often associated with anger management. If there is to be a movement from treatment to recovery, those aspects of the complex problem must be addressed in a structured way which will produce outcomes, not persistent reoffending. I am not suggesting for one minute that we have got there yet. These are new schemes just being put in place and. If we were to pilot conditional cautioning, we may well learn lessons from that which result in a sobriety scheme of one kind or another being associated with this package. I am convinced that we will not address serious crime associated with alcohol or drug abuse unless we take a holistic look at what we do to move people from treatment to recovery. That requires many agencies working together with clear and practical plans to ensure that that holistic approach is taken. Although I realise that that is not part of the noble Baroness's amendment, I wanted to reassure the House that I am sighted of the need for a package that addresses those complex cases. I have to say to her that there is very little detail in her amendments about how such cases will be dealt with in resources, cost and application to move people with those serious, complex conditions from treatment to recovery. I am not being deliberately negative about them, but if such a scheme is to work, we need to be clear in which direction we are taking it. The Government are fully committed to finding new ways to tackle the offending caused by excess drinking and ensuring that it is dealt with effectively. Although I recognise that my noble friend and the Deputy Mayor of London seek to achieve that by the amendments before us today, I am keen that we test that proposition using existing powers available to the police and the CPS. That will provide us with a helpful means of testing and developing the principles of the approach and monitoring its impact, effectiveness and potential risks before proceeding with legislative changes. To do that, we would like to identify two or three suitable areas where there is a problem with high-volume, less serious alcohol offending. That is the type of offending that blights many town centres, as has been mentioned in the debate. That is a pragmatic way forward that allows us to put into practice the principles of the noble Baroness’s amendment and begin to test the effect of a sobriety scheme to tackle alcohol-related offending.