Child Poverty Bill

My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend at least received the letter. Perhaps I will have another go. The Marmot review, to which several noble Lords referred, considered these matters in some detail and the Government are now considering their response. Until that is set out, it is not appropriate to set out legislative duties in the Bill on issues of nutrition or minimum incomes. However, we support the necessity to consider diet and healthy eating in any effort to tackle child poverty. Health is a key building block that the Secretary of State is required to consider when developing the strategy, under Clause 8(5). Officials in the child poverty unit are working with colleagues across Whitehall, including those from the Department of Health, to explore the links between health inequalities and poverty as part of the work underpinning the child poverty strategy. In considering Amendment 11 it is also important to note that inadequate income is one likely contributing factor to poor diets, but it is not the only one, since parents’ spending decisions, knowledge about nutrition and access to affordable healthy food are also important. There is good research evidence to show that many poor parents go without an adequate diet themselves to ensure that their children have an adequate diet. This is a complex problem that requires well thought-out solutions that go beyond the scope of the Bill. Returning to the amendment, I am not aware of a dataset that explicitly links child poverty to child nutrition. I do not know if the noble Lord, Lord Freud, with his great knowledge of these things, is aware of one; the Government certainly are not. It is likely that substantial further survey work would be needed to fulfil this amendment. This would be expensive and time-consuming for the commission to formulate and carry out, particularly on an annual basis. This would also significantly impinge on its independence. It might also divert the commission’s limited time and financial resources away from other matters that it may wish to investigate and provide advice to the Secretary of State on. I am also not persuaded that elevating one issue over another is the right approach. If the amendment were made, there is a strong risk that the commission would have neither the time nor the resources available to look into matters other than child malnutrition. I do not think we want the commission to be tied down in this way. Furthermore, if child poverty is seen as the major cause of malnutrition, as the amendment presumes, then the solution is surely to tackle child poverty and monitor and report on poverty levels annually, which is what the Bill sets out to do. This is not to say that the commission will not wish to consider these matters. Indeed, the Bill allows the commission to pursue an independent research agenda, but it should be for the commission to decide where to focus its research and analytical efforts. I hope I have demonstrated that overprescribing what the commission should do is not the best way forward and that the noble Lord will not press that amendment. Finally, I turn to Amendment 18. I recognise that several noble Lords have spoken to it, even though the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is unable to move it formally herself. The Government announced in the Pre-Budget Report in December that they would extend free school meals to primary school pupils in working families with an income of up to £16,190 in England from September 2010. Clause 25 was added to the Bill during Grand Committee. Although the Secretary of State proposes to make an order extending eligibility to children of primary school age, starting with those at key stage 1 or younger from September 2010 and rolling out to those at key stages 2 and 3 from September 2011, it would be possible to make further orders at some point in the future to extend eligibility to secondary school-age children, if it was felt appropriate. As my noble friend has acknowledged, this would not require further primary legislation. As set out in the Pre-Budget Report, the Government chose to focus the available resources on primary school children rather than secondary school children. This is consistent with the strategy of early intervention having more impact on encouraging healthy eating habits, which are more likely to be carried on independently at secondary school. While I am sympathetic to the result that this amendment is seeking, the cost of including secondary school children across the UK is of real substance. When fully rolled out in England alone, extending eligibility to primary school children in low-income working families will cost over £200 million a year. Any additional rollout would put significant additional new pressures on school budgets, which would have to be met from reducing other school services that are already committed. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, said that he was going to speak with all the passion he could muster and indeed he did; we know that he can muster considerable passion. He referred to Marmot, whose first recommendation was to give every child the best start in life. What happens during the early years, starting in the womb, has lifelong effects on many aspects of health and well-being from obesity, heart disease and mental health to educational achievement and economic status. A number of noble Lords, particularly the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bradford, covered that in their contributions, and we agree. The right reverend Prelate spoke about the Born in Bradford work and research and, in a sense, endorsed the thrust of the Marmot recommendations. I make it clear to him that we want to challenge child poverty through a range of routes and specific targets, which the Secretary of State has a duty to meet over four areas, including material deprivation, which I will come back to. There is also the obligation to produce strategies, making sure that—so far as is practical—people do not suffer socio-economic disadvantage. I am sure that we are going to define that at a later stage. A range of 21 issues in all, which academics have tried to identify as the dividing line between poor and non-poor families, determine how to look at material deprivation. This includes holidays away from home for at least one week, having family or friends around for a drink or meal at least once a month, two pairs of all-weather shoes for each adult, enough money to keep your home in a decent state of decoration, household contents insurance and a whole range of other things. If we are looking to make sure that we channel and tackle material deprivation then we are not just looking at subsistence levels of income for people; we are very clear about that. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about midwives. The Government have been involved in a very substantial programme of training midwives. I am happy to write to him about that. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, pressed on the extension of eligibility for free school meals in the first years of secondary school. As I said a moment ago, the primary legislation will allow orders to be made to cover secondary school children. Also, given the lone-parent obligations—we are down to the youngest child being seven by October of this year—and the first tranche of the additional free-school meals support for primary schools kicking in in September, there is an alignment at least for those younger children in primary school. I understand the point that my noble friend makes. A number of noble Lords touched upon the Marmot review. We are working through that at the moment and considering how best to take forward its recommendations. My noble friend Lord Rea talked about the breadth of the research. I hope that I have been able to address each of the points that noble Lords have made. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is keen to press his amendment. I have tried to point out—not just by relying on the technicalities—that it is quite difficult to accept it in its current form. He might not wish to press it tonight. I am very happy without commitment to have a discussion with him away from the sitting this evening. The matter is up to him. On the basis that it is defective, I hope he will not press the amendment.