Bribery Bill [Lords]

I will certainly consider it. I apologise to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) for not replying to his second question. He was right to suggest that sentences relating to such offences as money laundering should be brought into line with those relating to more general offences, so that the courts receive a message from this place that so-called white-collar crimes are just as important, pound for pound, as crimes committed by a common thief—thefts of tangible or what Dickens used to call portable property. The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield asked whether it would be possible to establish an office where people could submit the full details of what was being proposed and be given a tick or a cross against it. I do not think it desirable to provide for such a scheme in the Bill, and in any event it would not be possible to do so in the time available to us. Certainly we have been given no advice to that effect. What I will say to the hon. and learned Gentleman, however, is that clause 7(2), plus the guidance, will give commercial organisations that have acted responsibly, assiduously and in good faith such a complete defence to any prosecution in respect of an individual case that it is unlikely that one would ever be launched. Clause 7(1) makes a "relevant commercial organisation" guilty of an offence if a person associated with that organisation""bribes another person intending—""(a) to obtain or retain business for"" the organisation, or""(b) to obtain or retain an advantage in the conduct of business for"" the organisation. However, the second limb of the clause—expressed in subsection (2)—states that it is a defence for the relevant commercial organisation to prove that it""had in place adequate procedures designed to prevent persons associated with"" the organisation""from undertaking such conduct."" This measure is not designed to trip up decent companies that are acting responsibly or in good faith. On the contrary, it is designed to help them, because, as the experience from other countries has shown, the more it is made an imperative that those representing major businesses across the world are themselves under a requirement to act lawfully, the less will be the opportunity for those who are so tempted either to seek or offer bribes. I undertake to this House that we will keep the guidance issue carefully under review; it will have to be a kind of living document, therefore. Clause 13 has proved to be a sticking point. It provides for a defence for conduct necessary for the proper exercise of the functions of the intelligence services and the armed forces engaged on active service. The House should be in no doubt of the need for such a defence. Members will understand that I cannot go into operational details, but there are circumstances in which it is necessary for the effective discharge of the functions of one of the intelligence agencies or the armed forces that they engage in conduct that would otherwise amount to an offence under clauses 1 and 2. They need to do so because they are working to protect us and our liberties in difficult, and often dangerous, circumstances. We are being very straightforward about that in making provision for this defence. The truth is that nowadays our intelligence services are subjected to a far higher degree of transparency and accountability than those of most other comparable countries. Again, the House will, I know, excuse me for not being able to go into as much detail as I would like, but the difference is striking. That used not to be the case, of course. Before the passage of the Security Service Act 1989, our intelligence and security agencies—GCHQ, the Secret Intelligence Service and the Security Service—were never "averred", a strange verb meaning that their existence was never admitted to. Everybody denied that these agencies existed, even though there they were in Century house above a petrol station on the St. George's road to the Elephant, and in Gower street and—[Interruption.] No, it is not Michael Foot again. They were also in Curzon street. That changed, however. First, we had the 1989 Act, and then the Intelligence Services Act 1994, which also established the Intelligence and Security Committee. Those Acts, along with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, mean that we now have substantial ministerial, parliamentary and judicial oversight.