National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Environment) Order 2010

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have indicated their broad support for the order while identifying some criticisms which need to be taken on board. In some cases, I would think that they have been taken on board. I very much appreciate the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, about the contribution of others to the committee’s deliberations to improve the order. We owe the Welsh Affairs Committee a government response to its report, which we will provide in due course. I second the proposition put forward by the noble Lord that we should note the valuable work that it does, which is of great assistance as far as matters in Wales are concerned. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, was right to indicate that these are difficult economic times and that Wales, in the same way as the rest of the United Kingdom, must look towards to its enterprise laurels to ensure that it creates new jobs, new enterprises and new productive capacity, and recovers from what is after all the worst recession for more than a generation. However, the environment and environmental challenges also produce opportunities. An awful lot of enterprises are going to be concerned with how we meet the challenges of climate change, and not least the whole question of how we generate energy. The important thing is that the United Kingdom, and Wales in particular in this case, should be at the forefront in grasping those opportunities, although I am only too conscious of the very serious effects of the withdrawal of a major employer such as Bosch from Wales, with a serious loss of jobs. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, is right that it was a matter of regret that LG did not eventually invest in Newport. He has always been an extremely fair analyst of these situations. I was involved in politics in Newport at that time and he will know just how strenuously everyone concerned bent every sinew to try to land what would have been a very impressive investment in Newport and more widely in Wales. For a long time, we lived in serious expectation that we would be successful. I hasten to add that what caused LG to make a different decision had nothing to do with environmental considerations, or anything like that. However, it reflected the obvious fact that there is always some tension between investment and development and aspects of the environment. I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Roberts: we have to be aware that there is no legislation without cost, and environmental legislation also involves some costs. Of course, we will also reap the ferocious costs of failure to tackle environmental issues successfully, which is why we should applaud the fact that Assembly Members are eager to take on board the powers that will give them the opportunity to do their best for Wales in these very challenging circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, went on to identify that it is necessary to have a holistic approach towards environmental issues, and of course that means that matters become complex. The interrelationship between different factors can add to the complexity, and therefore the Government are bound to accept the anxieties expressed by every noble Lord who has spoken in the Committee about the complexity of this order and the challenges that it presents. We should be about ensuring that orders are eminently comprehensible by the ordinary man and woman in the street, as well as by those of us who spend a great deal of our time seeking to master the detail. I was grateful to my noble friend Lord Rowlands for reminding us that 30 or 40 years ago, before the age of devolution, Ministers in Wales wrestled with these issues and had to meet these challenges. I think he would be the first to recognise that they are probably now more challenging. The whole environmental relationship to the age of climate change is more demanding. There is an impact on the economy and a necessity for change, and none of us pretends that change is easy. Change imposes burdens on people and presents difficulties. I very much bear in mind his vast experience of that period of time and thank him for reminding us that Welsh Ministers had to address these issues on behalf of the country, but these are particularly challenging times and it is good to see the Assembly seeking these powers to enable it to meet those challenges. My noble friend Lord Rowlands raised an important cross-border issue. Of course, certain environmental issues know no borders—least of all the one between England and Wales—but he is absolutely right about the pernicious and gruesome social offence of fly-tipping. You cannot go any distance from a serious farmer’s farmhouse without him saying that one of the problems that he has got to face is people using his land for illegal fly-tipping and that the cost of clearing it up after it has been dumped is considerable. I appreciate the point my noble friend raised and I have no doubt that the Assembly will have to address that dimension. My noble friend Lord Rowlands has vast experience on the matter of exceptions because he served on committees which scrutinised a range of these issues. The exceptions were included because they are relevant to the matters which the Assembly is taking on board. The original proposed LCO applied transport exceptions to the environment matter. The exception does not have to be in the same field. Of course it is more appropriate if it is related to the same field because it is easier to justify, but it does not have to be directly in the same field, and issues such as transport, energy and water interrelate very closely with the environment. It is not surprising, therefore, that it should have proved necessary to include exceptions in those areas. However, I take on board the point that he made. I have no doubt that the work of the committee on which he used to serve, together with the scrutiny that we are involved in when dealing with legislation at this stage and the constant pressure that we should exert to make our legislation intelligible, will impact on those doing the work in the Assembly and the draft legislation with which they are concerned. We will not engage our communities unless our legislation is perceptive, comprehensible and fits the purpose for which it is intended. We all realise that in the real battle for the environment, education and understanding are almost the most important dimensions of all. We will not get conscious and effective public action unless the public are fully engaged, and getting the legislation right and comprehensible is very important in those terms. I thank noble Lords for their contributions. Motion agreed.