Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Mandatory Life Sentence: Determination of Minimum Term) Order 2010

My Lords, I shall deal with my noble friend’s last point first. I do not have those figures with me today, and I am not sure whether we have the precise data. My noble friend asks for a breakdown according to age, but I am not confident that we have those figures. However, I certainly take his point and undertake to ensure that he receives them if they are available. I turn to the issue that the noble Lords, Lord Wallace and Lord Henley, raised in relation to the court’s position. I understand that, on the face of it, there appears to be some minor difference, but I do not think that the views of the Sentencing Guidelines Council or, indeed, the judiciary depart very much from those of the Government. The council and the Government share the view that has been expressed in this Room; namely, that knife crime is a very serious offence and it needs to be dealt with robustly. As noble Lords will know, the courts have not hesitated to do so, particularly where it is clear that an individual has used a knife with the intention of causing harm. Therefore, agreement in relation to those matters appears to be solidly based. The Sentencing Guidelines Council’s response highlighted a number of issues. With regard to the law on murder using a knife, it highlighted that seriousness is normally related to the circumstances of the offence; for example, premeditation rather than simply the method used is important. We listened very carefully to that point. We also took on board the view that the council expressed about intention. Your Lordships will see that the provision that we have brought forward is focused on the intent of the individual, because that is what will determine whether the higher starting point is merited. Someone may take a knife, a bat or a weapon of some sort with them to commit a burglary. If they took that weapon with them to commit a criminal offence—they did not find it there, they did not just come across it and it was not used in the heat of the moment—and they then used it to kill, then the judge, exercising his or her discretion would be entitled to start at the higher starting point. Your Lordships know that it does not stop there because the court is entitled to take into account mitigating features that might cause it to reduce it significantly or aggravating features that might cause it to go higher. We have created clarity that when you commit a premeditated offence and where there is the intention to take a weapon with you for use in the commission of a criminal offence, the court is entitled to make a judgment on whether that is appropriate. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, asked about the discrepancy between the 17 year-old and the 18 year-old. We come right back to intention, circumstances and consequence because the court can take into account the maturity of the 17 year-old and is entitled to take into account the maturity of the 18 year-old. Noble Lords will know that age is not always the determining factor of maturity. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice talked about "kids". Your Lordships will know that many of us who have reached a certain age still talk of anyone under 30 as a kid. One can be forgiven a certain looseness of tongue that may not necessarily detract from the maturity that some individuals have at 18. It is important for us to look at it in the round and say that Parliament is putting down a marker or a starting point, but no more. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, about the wonderful work that has been done by Professor Shepherd in Cardiff. Not only has Professor Shepherd looked at knives, he has also done a huge amount of work on domestic violence and has been instrumental in helping us to collate information across health, so that we are now making an appreciable difference. I agree that one cannot look simply at this legislative provision. We must look at what we are doing on family intervention projects, safer school partnerships, neighbourhood policing teams, community prosecutors, the triaging that we are now—I hope—giving to victims and offenders to identify what risks there are for them and how we can intervene in their behaviour, and the work done on domestic violence. That work has made a significant impact. If we look at the causes why some of the young people that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, talked about take knives with them and the fears that they have, many of them come from dysfunctional families, so we are helping those families. The Committee should know that we have, together, done a great deal; I am talking about statutory, non-statutory and not-for-profit agencies and individuals. On domestic violence, Sylvia Walby’s research, which was used in part by Professor Shepherd, said that it cost us £23 billion in 2003. Her most recent research shows a reduction of £7.5 billion, so I take on board everything that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, said about that and assure him that Professor Shepherd’s work is being used extensively. He has participated in the Tackling Knives Action Programme that encompasses a range of police forces across England and Wales. Fifteen force areas, plus the British Transport Police, are now targeting over £5 million this year on tackling teenage crime. We are focusing very hard on prevention; we are working with retailers nationwide to prevent the sale of knives to under-18s and have given teachers new powers to search for knives at school. That goes hand in hand with educational work to convince teenagers that carrying a knife does not make them safer and actually puts them in more danger. South Wales is part of the Tackling Knives Action Programme and probably has the best practice. It has been identified by the Home Office under that programme. I hope that I have said enough to reassure the noble Lord that we are right alongside him when it comes to that issue. Will this make a difference? We believe that it will, and that it will be one of the issues that contribute to long-term delivery. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, the Lord Chief Justice believes that murder in these aggravating circumstances should attract a severe sentence, as I have indicated. He has also recognised the public concern about it. I hope that I have said enough to reassure noble Lords that the provision is needed and that it can be safely left to the courts to apply it with the necessary sensitivity, differentiating in every case between the nature and quality of the act complained of, so that the sentence really fits the crime.