UK Parliament / Open data

Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Mandatory Life Sentence: Determination of Minimum Term) Order 2010

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness the Attorney-General for introducing the order. I join with her comments about the public concern over knife crime, particularly following the murder of Ben Kinsella and many others over the past few years. It is a growing problem and it is right that we should look at it and address it. I, too, offer our condolences to the families who have lost relations as a result of this growing problem As the noble and learned Baroness is aware, my honourable friend David Burrowes in another place expressed his general support for this measure when it was debated there on 12 January. I therefore need not repeat everything he said on that occasion. However, I wish to deal with a number of concerns that have since arisen. The first concern, which the noble and learned Baroness quite rightly addressed, is the question of the definition of a knife or other weapon. As she put it, it is the intention that makes an object a weapon rather than its intrinsic nature. We all know what a knife is; the other weapon becomes a weapon if there is an intention to use it as such. Therefore a baseball bat—even a cricket bat, dare I say it, in England—or a screwdriver could become a weapon if there was an intention to use it as such. Similarly, although a knife is quite obviously a weapon, there are many legitimate occasions when people can carry knives. As often as not there is a small Swiss Army knife in my briefcase. In the old days it would be there to take stones out of horses’ shoes—we all had knives with a long implement to take stones out of horses’ shoes—but nowadays there is not often that necessity. They normally also have a corkscrew attachment with which to open a bottle of wine, and a host of other things. However, if there is no intention to use such a knife as a weapon, again I take it that it is perfectly legitimate to carry it. I am now happy that I understand what knife or other weapon means. It would be a matter for the courts because they would have to consider the question of intention when a prosecution takes place. I also accept that the position with firearms—which has a 30-year minimum rather than a 25-year minimum—is very different. Again, as the noble and learned Baroness put it, it is quite difficult to go out accidentally with a firearm. The noble and learned Baroness referred to the need for premeditation; one could argue that there is premeditation merely in having a firearm on one’s presence, or there is at least a certain recklessness that gets quite close to premeditation in carrying a weapon. I am satisfied with what she has said about that. My honourable friend’s second question was about increasing the figure to 25 years for those aged 18 and upwards and leaving the figure for those under 18 at 12 years. We are beginning to get something of discrepancy: it was 12 years and 15 years; it is now 12 years and 25 years with the break at 18, whereas, if I understand the noble and learned Baroness correctly—she will tell me if I am wrong—it used to be at 21. I shall be grateful for her comments on that. That will create a big discrepancy and the Government might want to look in future at whether it might not be appropriate to raise that figure for the under-18s. There will be occasions when two people—one just under 18 and one just over 18—will offend together and very different sentences will be prescribed as a result of this discrepancy. The third point on which I would like further comment relates to the concerns of the Lord Chief Justice. When he was speaking on behalf of the Sentencing Guidelines Council he thought that there were other ways in which this matter could be addressed rather than by simply increasing the minimum. Having said that, we on these Benches are satisfied that this is the right way ahead. I would be grateful if the noble and learned Baroness will address those points when she replies.
Type
Proceeding contribution
Reference
716 c310-1GC 
Session
2009-10
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
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