Equality Bill

I thought that the primary purpose of this Bill was to simplify and codify the law. Perhaps I have come to the wrong place. We have just heard a very extensive, wide-ranging debate, which, as my noble and learned friend pointed out, has been greatly extended by the fact that these issues were not properly debated in the other place. There is a problem. If you neglect the elected House and impose timetabled Motions which then cut out debate on issues as important as this, you are not doing your job as a Government to be answerable to the electorate. Some very important issues have arisen in this debate. It started with the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, wanting to put in the magic word "genuine". We have not had much of a genuine debate about whether or not the word "genuine" needs to be inserted, which is technically what this debate is about, although there are a number of other amendments grouped. The most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York started off this debate so well when he said that surely what we have just voted for is tranquillity. He was responding to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who said that the Bishops’ Bench was a row of turkeys waiting for Christmas. If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, I think the most reverend Primate was naturally very upset at that accusation. Surely what we want to do is to simplify the law and make it much easier to understand so that everybody knows what their rights are. I should not be confused, but I am a little uncertain as to what the Government are trying to achieve with this section. Is it preserving the status quo? Is it simplifying the law? Is it seeking to codify the law? I am not sure and we deserve an explanation from the Minister. In so far as Europe is concerned, the Government must be regretting certain parts of the Bill, which they were advised would strengthen their case with the European Commission. By voting to remove a portion of the Bill earlier, we have actually weakened the Government’s case. It would have been a much stronger case had they never put those provisions in in the first place. I am not sure that they were needed. To go back to what is perhaps the most important principle, I agree with my noble friend Lord Patten and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. We have to strive to make sure that we do not create a situation where societies doing valuable work, often with the most deprived children, can no longer carry on that vital work. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I pay tribute to him. I saw him on a couple of occasions urging for a more mixed economy and the better delivery of services by utilising the resources of the private sector. I agree with him that we have to be very careful that the rights of an existing workforce to be transferred to another provider are carefully measured against the needs of the community that is being served. That must all be taken into account when the organisation taking on the service has to consider the implications of taking on that service, but also the Government have to consider how best they can ensure that the right service is carried on by the right people. My noble friend Lord Elton made a number of good points. Like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, I am troubled and concerned by a number of aspects in this group of amendments—trying to dictate people’s religion, what religious organisations can ask of their employees, the whole issue of faith schools and everything else that has been brought into this debate, which has lasted almost an hour. We ought to return to the original purpose of the Bill, as the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, just said. What is the purpose of the Bill? When I was Secretary of State for Employment, I had the benefit of the noble Baroness as my director of the equalities office. I like to think that now and again, although perhaps not in public, she might acknowledge that I took careful note of a lot of guidance that I received from her, and I take careful note of some of the things that she said just now. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill—and, in a way, to myself—that we are lawyers. I am one of the few people in the solicitors’ profession who still has a practising certificate, and I have had for 41 years. In many ways, I suppose people would think that we wanted the law to be complicated, but we do not; we want it to be simple and understandable. It is far better for society that we achieve that, so we look to the Government to clarify this situation.