Equality Bill

My Lords, I support the spirit of Amendments 101A, 101B and 101C. I am particularly attracted to the elegance of Amendment 101B. Before I begin my remarks, could I say to the right reverend Prelate that I am a long-standing supporter of a mixed economy of providers in public services? I have no problems with that at all. Indeed, I spent six years as a director of social services doing just that in Kent and I have transferred public services into other bodies. However, one of the features of this kind of transfer when another body takes over public services is the discussions that take place around assurances being given to the staff who are being transferred from the public body. Usually one of the deals is that their conditions of services are safeguarded. That does not mean that they are going to be then subjected to inquiries about their religion and their private lives. It does not mean that they are going to be discriminated against when promotions come up. It is absolutely reasonable for a Government who are taking an Equality Bill through this House and through Parliament, and it is not discriminatory against the churches, to protect those staff in those circumstances from discrimination. As I understand, these amendments do just that. If we are not going to change the legislation in that way, we—and by "we" I also mean the Government—are accepting that level of discrimination, because the Bill does that. Sad to say, my honourable friend Vera Baird acknowledged that in the other place. She simply brushed aside the concerns in paragraph 176 of the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights by in effect saying that, ""the Government do not want to interfere with the religious ethos of the organisations, even though they deliver public services".—[Official Report, Commons, Equality Bill Committee, 23/6/09; col. 455.]" I think that is rather sad, not because I want the Government to interfere in the ethos of religious organisations but I would like them to be more robust in protecting the position of staff who are going to be transferred. I say that as a supporter of some degree of transfer of functions from public bodies for the better delivery of services to other organisations. I do not expect my noble friend the Minister to jump up and say "What an insightful man you are, Lord Warner. We thoroughly agree with everything you have said and we are going to have a change of heart". But I ask her to consider some questions before the Government give up the idea of any amendment in this area. The questions the Government should ask are as follows. There are only five: First, when working under contract with or on behalf of a public authority, are organisations with a religious ethos permitted to put a religious requirement on a previously secular position such as a care worker? We need an answer to that. Secondly, are public service workers who are transferred to a contracted religious organisation from the public authority at risk of being made redundant or of dismissal should their new post have religious requirements attached to them which they cannot meet? Thirdly, if employees must reapply for their position with their new religious employer, is it possible that their lack of required beliefs might render them ineligible for the very post that they had previously held? Fourthly, are public service workers who are transferred to a contracted religious organisation from the public authority at risk of having their career prospects restricted because more senior positions have religious requirements attached to them? Fifthly, are public service workers who are transferred to a contracted religious organisation from the public authority at risk of having their career prospects restricted because activities, training and other benefits are restricted to those who fulfil particular religious beliefs? Those are all legitimate questions that trade unions, staff representatives or management should be asking before they transfer staff from a public to any organisation, religious or otherwise. It is particularly relevant when it is a religious organisation, which is what these amendments address. I do not expect my noble friend necessarily to answer all those questions now but I do expect her to give a serious answer in writing to those questions to reassure me and, I suspect, other members of your Lordships’ House.