Crime and Security Bill

The hon. Gentleman was very generous in giving way to me, but time is now running very short because of his contribution and many others, so if he will forgive me, I shall continue. Let me now turn to the practical elements of the Bill. I am not a philosopher. I do not pretend to be one—and, to be honest, there are too many people coming out of universities with degrees in philosophy, and they cannot relate what they have learned to real situations, which is what it should all be about. The DNA database might have an impact on civil liberties, but is it making us more secure? Yes it is, and the vast majority of Members fully agree that it is a wonderful thing and a very useful tool. I commend the Government's enthusiasm for getting this database going, because they were clearly bringing about something to reduce levels of crime. Of course someone could say that just putting on to it everyone who was arrested was not entirely logical, but what are the extremes? One extreme is to put everyone on it, which would probably be impractical, although I would not have any problem with my DNA being on it. I have no intention of taking up a career as a burglar or some other kind of criminal if I ever leave this place, so what would I have to fear? I would have nothing to fear. Perhaps all those in favour of the database—on both sides of the House—ought to be willing to put our DNA on it and encourage the police and the judges to do so too. The other extreme is to have almost nobody on the database, but I do not think many in the House would wish that to happen. Of course I am aware of the concerns about disproportionality, but when one examines the statistical evidence, one finds that it is very hard to say that just because somebody is black they will end up on the DNA database; we heard statistics of 70 per cent, then 50 per cent. and then something else. The reality is that the police do not go around arresting people for no reason. If a police officer arrests somebody erroneously, they get bawled out by a custody sergeant in front of their colleagues. So arresting somebody for no good reason is not an option that police officers have and it is not something that they go out and do. In most cases, the people who have been arrested have been perfectly properly arrested. If one wants to talk about disproportionality, one could mention the fact that four fifths of the people on the database are men. I am a man, but I do not mind the fact that four fifths of the people on it are men. I do not think that the police are discriminating against men. I happen to think it unfortunate that more men are committing crimes. It may well be that more black youths are committing crimes. Most people do not want to consider that, but we should consider it. I suspect, however, that if one looked at the statistics, one would find that white youths from certain backgrounds—those from deprived backgrounds, broken homes and so on—would feature in them just as prominently. I do not think that this is as straightforward as some speakers have tried to suggest. Those on one side of the House are saying that we will keep the details on the database for six years and those on the other side are saying that we will keep them on there for three years, although we may extend that by a further two years, if necessary. There is not much difference between what those on either side of the House are saying, because we all accept that some people who may be found innocent by the courts will nevertheless have their DNA retained on a database—I am perfectly comfortable with that. When listening to the contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis), I was reminded of the confusion that police officers can create when they say, "You are on the database." What they actually mean is that someone is on the police national computer, which is something very different. When police officers put details in, a strict radio protocol is in operation and they do not get into conversations about who is on what database. They are told, "This person is known not wanted" or, "This person is known and wanted". The former description may be followed by certain other codes, one of which I recall from the following anecdote. I remember stopping somebody once in my capacity—I should have declared this—as a special constable and the code given to me was "Foxtrot, India". As that is code for "FI", my colleague said to me, "Leave him alone. He is a female impersonator. He is harmless enough, he is a transvestite." As it turns out, "Foxtrot, India" stands for "firearms"—"India, Foxtrot" would have been the code for "impersonates females"—so we got that one wrong and that person went merrily on his way. The reason I tell this story is because even if we had twigged that he was likely to have a firearm on him, we would not have been able to search him; that would not have been grounds for a stop and search. That brings me neatly to what I really wanted to say, which relates to stop and search legislation. Again, I give the Government a bit of credit, because section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 was a good idea. It was not about, and it was not meant to be about, catching lots of people. We can quote statistics all day long, but every day thousands of people are searched at airports and how many bombs do we find? We rarely find any bombs, and thank goodness for that. So the statistics are that thousands of people are searched, but only a handful are arrested. We continue to do those searches because if we did not do so, people would get on to planes with bombs. That was what section 44 was all about. It was not designed to catch lots of criminals; the aim was to send out a message to potential terrorists that they could be randomly stopped and searched, regardless of what they looked like. That is why section 44 was important, and I hope that the Government will address in the Bill the recent and very unfortunate European Court of Human Rights ruling. If we accept that people who are deemed innocent by a court can have their DNA kept and that people can be randomly stopped and searched under section 44 or, because they are in an area where a lot of crime occurs, under section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, it is perfectly reasonable and logical for us to say that where somebody has a criminal record for carrying a firearm, it is perfectly logical to search them if they are stopped for carrying out another offence. However, under the rather complicated legislation that police officers and Ministers have to wrestle with, that is not possible. The gentleman whom we thought was a transvestite but who was actually a gunman was in no danger of being searched because, unless we had evidence that he had a firearm on him at that moment in time, we would have had no grounds to search him. That is why, during the passage of this Bill, I want to see an amendment to section 1 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 that would allow people to take into account somebody's previous criminal record when deciding whether a search would be warranted. It would be an easy change to write into the relevant code of PACE. Let me turn, very briefly, to some of the other aspects of this Bill. The Government have come up with some proposals to deal with gang violence and my party, quite rightly, has come up with even more stringent proposals. Both sides of the House seem to recognise that gangs can start forming and causing problems at quite a young age. It does not matter to the victim of gang-related violence whether the person involved is 18, 17, 16 or 14. The victim wants action to be taken and action is what we are suggesting. It is a shame that some Members of the House, on one particular wing, do not feel willing to support that. I would say to the gangs that if they do not like it, they need to wake up a bit. We went to talk to gang members with the Home Affairs Committee. They said to us, "We carry knives and guns because the other gang carry knives and guns." I asked why they did not tell the police about it and they said, "Oh, we don't trust the police and we've got a code. We never grass people up." I am afraid that if that is their attitude, they will have to accept that the police will have to have fairly wide powers to deal with the lot of them. If they think that it is unfortunate that the gang down the road have guns, and that is why they want them—although they are very sad about it—we will help them out. We will give the police the powers to take away the guns and anything else that they can to try to help the gang members and their neighbourhoods. Let me say one last thing before I sit down. Although I welcome the new provisions on domestic violence, I am very sad that there is no mention in the Bill of female genital mutilation. We passed a law seven years ago and not one person has been convicted of that heinous crime. There is also nothing in the Bill to do with forced marriages despite the fact that we know that thousands of young girls are being virtually sold into domestic servitude by their relatives. I shall certainly play my part, on the Committee or not as people decide, and I look forward to contributing to the Bill as it proceeds through Parliament.