Crime and Security Bill

I could make a joke about the hon. Gentleman looking shifty and all sorts of other things, but I shall not. I think and have said, both as a Minister and subsequently, that the definition of photography in public places and how it rubs up against section 44 needs serious consideration, because most police forces throughout the country use the powers wrongly. Happily, when it is pointed out to them, they change, but I was slightly worried that in a recent court case involving a conspiracy that largely revolved around photographs taken by the individuals, some in the police family—but not all—tried to offer that up almost as justification for what police community support officers and police officers do to people going about their lawful business and taking photographs. I think the police understand that. If they do not, we need to say it louder. Notwithstanding that, section 44 has, broadly, worked well. There has been no blanket application throughout the country. Most forces, bearing in mind the fact that I signed them off for two and a half years, were sparing in their use of the powers, unless they had a key facility such as an airport nearby, or used them and gave significant reasons why. However, none were as universal as London or areas with sensitive locations. There is another important issue running through this debate and that on DNA, although it is not germane to the Bill: the nexus between race and the criminal justice system. I accept and have said publicly that there is a disparity in the number of young black men, especially, on the database—we heard the figures earlier—and in the criminal justice system. That is troublesome in the context not of the DNA database but of the criminal justice system. The notion suggested recently that race is somehow no longer a factor in our politics—it is now class, apparently—is profound nonsense, especially in terms of the criminal justice system. It must matter to all of us that 77 per cent. of 15 to 35-year-old black men are on the DNA database, but not because of the database. The database, in its universal application thus far, simply reflects what is going on in the criminal justice system. My point is not that it is worrying that so many young black men are on the database; I find it worrying that so many young black men are being arrested and entering the criminal justice system that way. That is what needs to be tackled; the DNA database is purely a reflection of it. That is overcome by the measures proposed by my hon. Friends. The same applies to stop and search. It is important to keep the ethnicity element, but although it is often said that section 44, 30 or 60 powers have been used wrongly and impinge on community relations, much of the evidence for that does not stack up, save for the relationship between where many of our communities live and the propensity for crime in those areas. I am not linking the two at all, however. This is simply about protecting those communities. The Bill has got the provisions on DNA about right, but the matter needs to be kept under constant review. I welcome the provisions on bureaucracy, and many of the other elements that have already been put in place. I shall no doubt take further the matter of section 44 with colleagues, especially those in London—