Crime and Security Bill

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), not least because I have a high regard for what he says on this matter. I do not always agree with him, but I know that he approaches it in a terribly thoughtful way. I must say, however, that I disagreed absolutely with his opening and closing remarks. The notion that we are anything other than a beacon for much of the rest of the world in our record on civil liberties and criminal justice is wrong. He bases his remarks on a flawed report by Amnesty International, which really should know better. It took what the House clearly and explicitly passed as extraordinary legislation, to be used very sparingly and only in specific circumstances, and judged us as though it were universal. That is profoundly flawed. I disagreed also with the remarks by the deputy chief constable of Hampshire that the hon. Gentleman quoted. The House is not sleepwalking towards authoritarianism. I do not doubt that there are issues to consider in the Bill, which I will come on to describe, but hyperbole does not help. We have had a good debate thus far except, as is the case on these occasions, from the Opposition Front Bencher, for whom hyperbole was everything and substance was seriously lacking. That was a shame, because regardless of what happens over the next couple of months, we are considering profoundly serious issues for our country and our civil liberties. I wish to touch on some matters on which I agree with the Government and some on which I do not. I shall start with those on which I do not, which is unusual for me. From my knowledge and expertise of the use of mobile phones in prisons, not least by convicted terrorist prisoners, I do not believe that simply putting a possession offence on the statute book is good enough. It is the Ministry of Justice, happily, not the Home Office—my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism may wear two hats—that needs to get serious about that matter and, notwithstanding resources, ban mobile phones and their use from prisons full stop, with all the resource implications that that entails for both staff and prisoners. We have been up, down and sideways going through technically possible and cost-effective ways to dampen the signal so that calls cannot be received in prisons, as has been suggested. Everyone knows the stories, not least of assassinations and drug deals organised on contraband mobile phones in prisons. I would rather see the Prison Service bring in a total and absolute ban on mobile phones inside prisons, for staff and prisoners, and then see what that entails for their resources, than have the limitation on the possession of contraband phones set out in the Bill, although I welcome that as far as it goes. I should like there to be a link between a contravention of the provisions against the possession of contraband phones and the early release scheme. I do not want the individuals concerned to get simply a couple of months or a fine, or whatever the Bill says—