Powers of Entry etc. Bill [HL]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, on his tenacity in pursuing this issue. As in previous Bills, he used the term "tenacity" when referring to the sponsor of the Bill that was debated immediately before his. However, that term applies to him today. From these Benches, I very much support the premise—no pun is intended—on which this Bill is based, for the reasons explained by the noble and learned Lord, which I shall not repeat at length. The balance of powers of the state against those of the individual—perhaps, in this context, one should call the individual the citizen—needs care. The increase in the powers of the Executive, from a neutral position, against those of the citizen needs justification in every case. What we are talking about is, indeed, an invasion of privacy—one which is less publicised than personal invasions of privacy which we debate in the context of DNA, ID cards and so on. Nevertheless, this is extremely important. I, too, was surprised at the length of the schedule, but I wondered whether it was up to date. My impression, over the term of the current Government, is that there have been far more introductions of the sorts of powers which we all find offensive than appear in this schedule. Rather like the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I wondered whether this was a subject on which one should encourage PhD or MA work to bring this all together and to check it out. I am sorry to insert a note, not of discord, but of caution. This issue requires a more complex, detailed, and perhaps more subtle approach than is in the Bill. Consideration would have to be Act by Act and statutory instrument by statutory instrument, starting from the same basic point that a power needs to be justified—looking at the particular requirements in each case and, indeed, whether the power is required at all. One would hope that one might, through such an exercise, get rid of many of these powers, and certainly co-ordinate and standardise them. Perhaps the noble Lord in his reply can tell me how much consultation there has been with each of the agencies whose powers are in contention in the Bill. I remember, during consideration of legislation a few years ago, that we listened to a lot of self-justification by some of the agencies. I was not always persuaded by it, but there has to be that sort of exercise. Like the noble and learned Lord, I feel that there are a number of drafting points, most of which could be considered at a later stage. I shall mention just two. The first is how one defines "danger" as set out in this context. The "Limitations on powers of entry" would allow for entry, ""necessary to avert danger to life or property"." That could cover a huge spectrum of danger, including the amount of possible damage, as well as a time spectrum—immediate or long-term danger—and the degree of danger. Are we talking about an emergency, for instance? That may be what is implicit. My second and more important point at this stage in the Bill’s proceedings is that in Clause 5(2) each requirement in each paragraph must be met. It cannot be the case that there would have to be both a warrant and the agreement of, ""the person having control of the premises"." That is obviously inconsistent. If there is agreement, there would be no need for a warrant. Again, perhaps the noble Lord can confirm either that I have misread the drafting or that this is something he can take up. As I said, I do not want my caution to reduce the concern that I expressed on behalf of these Benches about the excessive powers of the Executive, which have grown in such an extraordinary way, as illustrated by the schedule to the Bill, whether or not it is complete. The noble Lord has demonstrated his tenaciousness. I suspect that the Bill is not destined for a long life in this Parliament but the subject certainly needs very careful attention.