Equality Bill

My Lords, the Government made a rod for their own back by having such an immensely complicated Bill face such a short amount of possible debate in the other place. To have a Bill of this length would have been bad enough, but, bearing in the mind the effect it could have on so many groups of people, it is even worse that the House of Commons was not permitted because of the guillotine to debate all these matters in sufficient depth. There are many points, apart from the amendments in this group, which should have been investigated very thoroughly. I quite understand why my noble friend Lady Warsi has not so far sampled the joys and delights of a Saga holiday, but I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Coity, has done so, and I look forward with unbridled delight at the thought that I may meet him on some future joint cruise. I should say that I have some interest in Saga, albeit that I have no pecuniary interest of any kind, but there was a time when I did some lecturing aboard Saga ships. Having learnt what a good job it does, since then I have been on several of those cruises, which have been self-fund. The trouble with what we are discussing is that we are asked to take so much on trust. Those of us who have experienced Saga will know that it does an exceptionally good job for the over-50s. The cruises are extremely well organised and I have never met anyone yet who has not enjoyed them. I draw the House’s attention to the last words said by Mr Michael Howard when the matter was debated in the House of Commons. He had also been pleading to have it made absolutely clear that these concessions would be allowed to continue. He said: ""The Solicitor-General says that she understands the problem, but the problem will not be met by guidance. The law in this land is not determined by the Government’s guidance; it is determined by legislation".—[Official Report, Commons, 2/12/09; col. 1203.]" That is exactly the problem we face now. We would be failing in our duty if we did not press the Government on precisely what they mean by the kind words and gentle attitude they have expressed. Saga says that it is pleased that the Government probably—it underlines the word probably—want to be allowed to continue aged-based concessions and age limits on group holidays. I wish I could join Saga in the happy notion that this is actually what is going to happen. I was interested to see the introductory speaking note on these amendments. Hearing that it was from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, I immediately became very drawn to it because I trust her utterly in what she says, as I think we all do because we all share a great regard for her. I read the note very carefully and I cannot say that it gave me the assurance I am sure she means me to have. She means to make a positive, written-in and clarified point about this very complicated Bill. The note says: ""I am happy to confirm that marketing goods, facilities or services specifically to people who share a protected characteristic is lawful now and nothing in the Bill will prevent service providers from continuing to do it"." Three cheers, although as I go along I am bound to feel that perhaps only one and a half can be accorded. I cannot see any firm and clear statement that the law is going to say what will protect these holidays, and that is the crux of the matter. I trust the noble Baroness to the end. Perhaps she is not totally able to influence precisely the wording of the Bill, but I do not think businesses can function if there is a doubt. If there is a possibility that what they propose to do is not going to be within the law, they cannot make those offers. They can act only in accordance with the law, and what the law will say, if we pass it as it is clearly written before us, is that there is going to be a doubt as to whether these services will be able to continue. Apparently, consultation is still going on and the Government do not doubt that the case is a good one. If so, why not make it clear beyond peradventure that these holidays and services will still be available when the legislation goes through? It is that which moves me to get to my feet. I do not want to prolong my speech because much of what I would have said, particularly about insurance, has already been said by my noble friend Lady Warsi. However, it is extremely important for us to give clear assurance to these people that their services may continue.