Social Security Regulations

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for bringing forward this Motion which has given us the chance to talk about these important issues. I also thank all noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. No one has done more to campaign on easing the barriers to involvement of people on benefits than the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. I have listened with great interest to the points that have been made and I would like to thank all the organisations which contributed to the development of this policy by meeting my officials and taking time to offer advice on the regulations and guidance. I shall start by explaining how we set about defining what we mean by a service user group in these regulations. Clearly, it has exercised a number of noble Lords. I say in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Low, who, as he explained, has unfortunately had to leave us, that where we have ended up is neither a conspiracy nor a cock-up. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, who said that we were adding complexity by these arrangements, that I do not agree. I believe the ways in which we have constructed them means that the changes are simple. As noble Lords will have gathered from today's speeches, there is a wide range of what could be described as involvement activity. It is not always easy to cover all possible scenarios in regulations or guidance without sacrificing clarity and accuracy. We were keen to make the new rules simple enough for our customers and staff to understand and reduce as far as possible the scope for interpretation by Jobcentre Plus local offices. We also wanted to avoid an obligation on people to provide large amounts of information about their involvement or have to justify what they were doing. The best test is whether it sets out the full limits of the easement. As a result, the definition in the regulations describes a service user group as a group of individuals who are consulted by, or on behalf of, a public or local authority in Great Britain or Northern Ireland for the purposes of monitoring and advising on a policy of that body or authority. The regulations go on to make specific reference to the key statutes that require such bodies to consult people. This list is underpinned by a catch-all reference designed to include any areas not covered by our list of statutes. It would have been ideal to have a full list of all the individual Acts that require public involvement or consultation but there are simply too many and such a list in our regulations would inevitably need regular updating. We believe that this definition is clear and straightforward. Effectively, where there is a statutory duty to involve service users, any expenses paid to a service user are now completely disregarded for benefit purposes. It is worth reminding noble Lords that this improvement will help all service users, although this debate has focused much on disabled people for whom these provisions are especially welcome. Disabled people will have particular expenses connected with their involvement; for example, someone who is visually impaired may need someone to read to them relevant papers before an event. Others may need the help of a carer or personal assistant to accompany and assist them. Now every single item of expense will be completely disregarded. In addition, we were made aware of situations where service users have had notional income scored against their benefit entitlement, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, explained. Our notional income rules allow the department to assume an income in situations where it is reasonable to expect that a person would be paid for a service they have performed. The purpose here is twofold: both to protect people from being exploited and to prevent abuse of the benefit system. Until now, if an organisation wished to involve people as service users but offered a lesser amount of money to comply with the benefit earnings rules, they fell foul of these notional earnings rules. They also caused confusion for people in receipt of benefits who did not know how much they could accept without being at risk of losing their benefits. Our changes remove service users completely from the scope of our notional income rules. Both these changes will make it much easier for people receiving benefits to come forward and participate without worrying about losing their benefits. We want to encourage that to happen and, under our definition, so long as the service provider tells Jobcentre Plus staff that their involvement is within this definition, that will be enough. The Motion today is about people who may fall outside the definition. We have been told that some people can and do take part in a broad spectrum of involvement activity not required by law. The real question, therefore, is where we draw the line when it comes to our definition of service user activity. While involvement such as hospital inspections or health research may lack some of the more formal aspects of employment, people are performing a service for which they are often paid, in many cases on a regular basis and at a commercial rate, within the context of semi-formal work arrangements. There is a real risk that widening the definition to bring in more people could be seen as unfair to others who may be doing something just as useful, such as nursing or child minding. There are other reasons for drawing the line where we have. First, our definition covers all areas where there is a requirement for public service involvement, including those which many will see as being key—for example, health, education, housing, policing, social care and local authority service delivery. Secondly, it sets out the full limits of the easement which will ensure clarity and accuracy for both our customers and our staff. There is extensive legislation that requires public consultation or involvement in this way across the piece, so what we have done will have a very wide impact. The benefit system has always recognised the important role that third sector organisations play in our national life and already accommodates payments they may make to service users in a favourable way. For example, our rules allow us to disregard any expenses paid to somebody who is engaged by a charitable or voluntary organisation, or is a volunteer, provided that is all that they are paid. People who are being paid as service users would have the advantage of both our system of earnings disregards and, if appropriate, our permitted work rules. As we have heard, the former would allow, for example, a disabled person to earn up to £20 per week before their benefit was affected, and the permitted work rules would allow a person in receipt of employment and support allowance to earn up to £93 for up to 52 weeks before there is any impact on their benefit entitlement. In addition, a one-off involvement in a research project would not generally be treated as work for benefit purposes and any payments would either be treated as income or, in some cases, as capital. The noble Baroness asked me three questions at the end of her speech, the first of which was whether the use of the term "service user group" is intended to cover individual service users. We cannot envisage a situation where public bodies would just consult a single individual and no one else over how they design and deliver their services. So even though a service user involvement may take place on a one-to-one basis, we would still see them as being part of a wider service user group so that we are content that our definition will be fit for purpose. However, we will ensure that our guidance is strengthened to address this particular point. In addition—my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley was particularly focused on this point—the expense of engaging a carer or personal assistant to help our customers with their service user involvement is now being treated as a key expense that we would disregard entirely. The carer themselves would be able to claim all their expenses if they were giving their services voluntarily; otherwise any earnings they received from the service user would fall within the existing benefit rules. The noble Baroness’s second question was about the definition of expenses. Again, I am happy to confirm that the changes we have made will now allow us to disregard all expenses paid or reimbursed to any of our customers who take part in service user activity, and our guidance fully reflects that position. It will cover each item that the noble Baroness instanced. The final point that the noble Baroness made relates to the term "notional expenses". She asked whether they are the same as earnings. I am sorry to say that there was a small drafting error in the Explanatory Note attached to the first set of regulations that form the subject of the regret Motion. The note should read that the regulations in question provide a disregard for any expenses and remove our service user group entirely from the operation of the notional income rules. Happily, this is exactly what the regulations themselves now deliver, and I will arrange for the small drafting error in the note, which does not form part of the regulations, to be rectified at an early opportunity. We plan to evaluate the changes and will involve customers and customer groups, such as Mind, as well as those Jobcentre Plus staff who are administering the rules. As part of that evaluation, I will think further about the arguments put forward by noble Lords this evening for extending the rules and will consider whether anything further should be done. Crucial to that consideration will be that any widening of the rules does not undermine the policy intention, so that, for example, it brings in commercial organisations, or that it broadens unduly the definition of service users set out in the regulations. This will include the points raised by members of the Social Security Advisory Committee. We believe that the changes these regulations have put in place will make a real difference to those of our customers who, as service users, come forward to take part in this important civic role. We believe that the changes will remove any concerns they may have on the impact of their involvement on their benefit entitlement. There were a couple of specific points. My noble friend Lady Pitkeathley referred to the need for better guidance for carers. As part of our evaluation, we will consult carers’ organisations and make sure that we provide suitable guidance. The noble Lord, Lord Low, said that the changes will cause confusion. We will work with service providers and public bodies to put together guidance for service users to produce as much clarity as possible. To return to the issue of the treatment of carers, carers who are participating as service users in their own right within the rules are fully covered by our changes. Carers accompanying service users in an unpaid capacity will already have all their expenses disregarded. I hope I have covered each of the points that have been made. I acknowledge there is a warm welcome for the progress we have made and still some concerns about those areas that we have not covered. I have explained that we will undertake an evaluation of this. I conclude by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for her engagement and support on this agenda. I know I do not need to ask her not to press her Motion as she has already said that she will not.