Health Bill [HL]

My Lords, this has been a good debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. We have heard in particular from the noble Lords, Lord Walton and Lord Patel, about the damage that is caused to young people who are given access to cigarettes. That is not a case that I wish to argue against; I accept it, but it is not central to the matter at issue. It is necessary to re-emphasise only two points. There is a proportionate and workable course of action open to Parliament in pursuing its wish to bear down on underage access to vending machines. That is to allow the Government to lay regulations designed to ensure that such access does not occur, while at the same time allowing legitimate adult smokers to purchase cigarettes from vending machines as they wish. I do not show the pessimism of the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, about this. We know that there is technology available and in use that would enable that to happen. The Government believe that, too. The Minister in another place, Gillian Merron, said during the debate on the McCartney amendment: ""The Government believe that we can place requirements on vending machines that will be effective, proportionate and deliverable in preventing under-age sales and balance the views of all concerned".—[Official Report, Commons, 12/10/09; col. 109.]" Those of us who share that belief argue that, if government policy is to be overturned, the very least that is needed is a vote in the House of Commons. Indeed, I would argue that a vote there should be seen as necessary, irrespective of one’s view on the banning of vending machines. My clear understanding is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Howie, has outlined, the other place was denied the opportunity to go through the Lobbies. I refer the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, to col. 123 of Commons Hansard on 12 October, which makes the position abundantly clear. I am sorry if the sensibilities of Members of another place may be troubled by our rejecting the McCartney amendment, but in my view the matter is too important for that. It is certainly true that the competing interests were debated in the other place, but from reading the debate one can see that they were barely alluded to. The main thrust of the debate focused on tobacco displays, which are not the subject of our debate. To approve the Commons amendment today, in the absence of a Commons vote, would be to betray the 650 or so people whose livelihoods depend on being able to operate vending machines. They are men and women with families and mortgages who, in many cases, stand to lose everything if cigarette vending machines are summarily banned. If that were to happen on the back of what was, essentially, a mess-up in the House of Commons, it would—