Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill

Again, we have had a very interesting debate. The hon. Member for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Bellingham) is an adornment to this House, and I hope that he will preserve that status by withdrawing this amendment. I shall set out my reasons. The hon. Gentleman quite rightly raises the point that all public institutions have to be efficient and cost-effective, and they do, but he has to be careful that he does not take Oscar Wilde's definition of modern people as people who know the value of nothing and the price of everything and attach it to the modern Conservative party. These institutions have great value and tribute has been paid to the building. This is the apex of our judicial system and one of the cornerstones of our constitution. No one would have said that the Palace of Westminster should never have been built with its wonderful decoration. It is a Palace of Westminster that belongs to the British people in the same way, ultimately, as the Supreme Court does. However, the hon. Gentleman is quite right to raise the question of cost-effectiveness, although, of course, public institutions never waste money. My problem is that it is very difficult to compare costs. I intervened on the hon. Gentleman and, perhaps rashly, he insisted that he was comparing like with like. I ask him to think again. It is very difficult to make reliable comparisons for exactly the reason that has been given by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). There is no like-for-like comparison that we have been able to find. If the hon. Member for North-West Norfolk can produce such a comparison for me, line by line, in a way that a chartered accountant would recognise, I would be happy to consider it and, if we can find savings, I would be happy to make them on that basis. However, the increase in the number of staff, for example, includes security, the library and catering, all of which were previously provided by the House of Lords infrastructure. There was no space to expand, even though sometimes it was needed. It is very difficult. Anyone who has tried to find out the true cost of catering in the Houses of Parliament runs up against the same problems of how we cost the building and its running costs. There are all kinds of intricacies that I have never been able to get to the bottom of. If he can, and if he can produce genuine like-for-like comparisons between the two buildings, I will happily look at them.