Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, if there was one justification for tabling these amendments, it has been the quality of the debate tonight. If there was one reason to hold the debate, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, expressed it. It has made us all learn a great deal more about a way of life that mostly goes unseen, un-noted and undebated by this House. So in no way do I regret tabling the amendments. We have learnt a great deal more this evening. We have heard both the perfect world solution and what the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, referred to as the imperfect world solution. I hope that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, will follow through this debate with developing those routes out of prostitution. We have not yet debated the next clauses in this part, but they do not look as though they try to develop routes out as much as criminalising the women, forcing them into rehabilitation, developing problems for them when they do not comply with the orders, closing down brothels and so on. That part of the Bill gives a very negative feeling to what the Minister gave a very positive view of this evening—and I hope that the Government return to that more positive feeling that she expressed in summing up. I shall not enter into the lion’s den again of the legal arguments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. It is clear that there are immense problems around this. If the Government have their way and this goes forward unamended, we will be back here debating whether it is proving workable and whether there is a better solution. Tonight, the right thing to do will be to allow this experiment—and it is an experiment—to go forward. We will not continue to oppose the Government in this, but I plead with them to develop a far more positive attitude to the other clauses in the Bill and not leave us with a negative feeling when we debate those clauses, starting with the very next clause, which leaves the under-18s criminalised. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, made a very powerful speech, but she must remember that the negative point with which this Bill starts is that it leaves children under 18 as criminals. They are still criminalised; they should be seen by the law as victims and not criminals, as the Government wish to leave them in this Bill. We will not oppose this clause tonight. The debate has stiffened our resolve to keep a very close eye on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Some Lords objected to the request for leave to withdraw the amendment, so it was not granted. The Chairman decided on a show of voices that Amendment 20 was disagreed.