Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, as you will see, I rise to reply to the amendments on behalf of the Government. I say to all noble Lords who have contributed that the debate has done the House justice on this very important amendment. Noble Lords will not be surprised that I agree, without reservation, with all of those who support the Government’s case—the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Morrow, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, the noble Baronesses, Lady Howarth and Lady O’Cathain, and, through her, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, who is absolutely right in his assessment that without strict liability this offence will be meaningless. I of course take great note of what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, says, but I prefer the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I understand the reservations of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Stern and Lady Howe. However, although there were many powerful speeches in support of the Government’s case, one of the most poignant came from the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, who had the privilege—it must have been a privilege—of hearing directly from the women who suffer and about whom we speak. We should not cloak ourselves in the impression that what we are talking about are the civil liberties of the purchaser. What we are talking about is the abuse, degradation, humiliation and pain caused to women who engage in this activity, not because they desire it but because they are compelled, coerced and manacled in a way that no human being should be. The pain described by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, and which was referred to poignantly by the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Morrow, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, is very real indeed. We are faced with a choice tonight: do we speak for the victims, do we stand up for those who have no voice for themselves, do we stand in the breach for them—or do we provide a cloak of anonymity and protection for those who do not wish to face what they do when they purchase sex from a woman or a man, quite often of tender years, who has been coerced or forced into that position? With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who knows that I hold him in the highest esteem and affection, we should not cloak ourselves with nice legal arguments about secondary or primary participants. I need to be clear that the Government’s view is that those who purchase sex from people in that position commit a wrong. They enable a situation that is avoidable to continue. We have a choice tonight to decide on which stand we will set our mark. Who will we support, and who will we defend? The Government do not hesitate in saying that we hope that this offence will have a "chilling effect" on those who buy sex from the vulnerable and the weak and from people who they do not know—on each person who buys sexual favours for money from a prostitute, be they male or female. If the consequence of this amendment would be to deprive us of an opportunity to protect people, then our position is that that would be very wrong. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, because I know that her intention is to help to protect those who are vulnerable. We are not apart in that, but she is right that there are different views about how we should do it. She knows that when we embarked on the consultation process, we did so openly. There was no limit to what we were willing to consider. We looked hard at the issue, and over the summer we considered all the things that we had heard. However, there is evidence and then there is something else—it is called judgment. We have to make a judgment about what is best. It is the Government’s judgment that we need to draw a line in the sand and say to individuals, "If you wish to purchase sex from an individual, you can—there is no impediment to you doing that—but you have to be sure from whom you are purchasing. You have to be sure that that person isn’t coerced, that they are of the right age and that you are not in fact engaging in sexual abuse. If you are not sure, then maybe you should buy from someone else".