Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

My Lords, I turn to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, in his concern about the brand and the point about the Rathbone and Barnardo's scenario. We share exactly the same view about the importance of the apprenticeship brand. Indeed, for some time we have said that a programme for a learning apprenticeship does not count towards statistics for apprenticeships unless there is an employer connection. If there is not, it is not an apprenticeship. To reiterate on the point of concern regarding Barnardo’s and Rathbone, there is a balance to be struck here. Although I heard the plea from the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for flexibility, there is a limit where flexibility goes too far and we start to damage the brand. We have tried to strike that important balance. We have made clear that the six-month pre-apprenticeship contract period of work-based training is not in itself an apprenticeship. It will count towards the completion of an apprenticeship framework and the award of an apprenticeship certificate only if the young person is employed as an apprentice within the six-month period. Let me also be absolutely clear that the apprenticeship would only start and would only count towards official apprenticeship statistics once the learner was employed. I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that the six months’ training would be funded the National Apprenticeship Service. We have tried to strike a balance—we recognise the valuable nature of that work. As we said previously, the precise detail of the six-month period will need to be agreed when regulations are being drafted. We are committed to working with Rathbone, Barnardo’s and other interested parties on these regulations. I note the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, made in relation to those with learning difficulties. We are dealing with that separately in further amendments, where you will see we have made real and significant progress with helping those people. I will deal first with the second of the two questions raised by my noble friend Lord Layard because the paper happens to be on the top. He asked why the competence qualification is the principal qualification. From an employer’s perspective it is important that apprentices have technical knowledge, but the competence qualification demonstrates that they can actually do the job. I know my noble friend Lady Blackstone is shaking her head. As a former apprentice, I think that I have a touch more experience—there are not many areas in which I would say that—and it would not be the first situation that I have encountered where you can have all the technical qualifications in the world but the ability to do the job, the ability to carry out the work, is what is important. I have known a number of electrical apprentices who were great in theory, but I am afraid when it came to cabling the house and completing the job in a satisfactory time could not actually do it. Ultimately, ability in that area will create their employment prospects.