Welfare Reform Bill

My Lords, we have had another interesting canter around Clause 7 and all its ramifications. It can reasonably be ascertained from his contribution that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is not particularly enamoured of this provision. I am also interested in the view of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, that people casually reading the then Welfare Reform Act and coming across the provision might be alarmed by it. However, we take this issue seriously and it is clearly the cause of some concern, so let me see what I can do to help. Clause 7 introduces our proposals to abolish income support, and in another place it was referred to as "a very big step" and "a wide-ranging power". In previous debates in your Lordships’ House, it has been said that abolishing income support might take away the safety net that guarantees everyone an income. However, while I understand these real and genuine concerns, I reiterate what I said in Grand Committee and indeed repeated earlier this afternoon: this clause does not abolish income support immediately. It simply provides a mechanism for abolishing it once there are no longer any groups of people who need it. That point is central to the Government’s thinking. We are not removing the safety net or undermining the role of the benefit system to support those who most need it. Provision is being made elsewhere in the Bill to ensure that when people move to other benefits, they will not receive less money as a result and they will not be subject to the requirements placed on those who are required to look for work. I make it categorically and absolutely clear once again that it is not our intention to move carers off income support until we have looked carefully at their position as part of our work on long-term care, and until we have a clear and detailed plan for the longer term which includes the right provision for carers. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, is absolutely right that when we move forward on this, of course we must set out a clear route map and destinations for the benefits that people are going to receive as an alternative, so that the protections are in place. However, we are not at that stage now because we are not that close to doing it. The complexity of the current benefit system has been the subject of much debate in the past and I believe there is a consensus that change needs to be made. That is why this clause is so important. It will enable us to simplify and streamline the benefit system while ensuring that the change is delivered in a way that achieves both simplification and a better system for customers as well as staff. A system that allows lone parents, for example, to move through the different levels of conditionality without changing benefit will be much easier than a system which requires them to switch benefits when their youngest child reaches the age of seven, with all the complexities and problems that that can involve. Surely the noble Lord would accept that point. During Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, questioned why we were taking the powers now to abolish a benefit when people would still be claiming it for years. It is true that we have no definitive date to finally abolish income support. This is partly because of the need for flexibility to ensure that all groups are properly provided for, but also because we firmly believe that major changes to the benefits system have to be made in stages. It is the only way to ensure safe delivery and to minimise disruption for our customers. However, we still believe it is important to set out in this Bill a clear intention to abolish income support. It will be a significant step towards a simpler, more flexible system of benefits, but a step that will be taken only within tightly defined conditions and with sufficient safeguards in place. These safeguards will ensure that before any category of person is moved from income support there will be ample opportunity for scrutiny by the advisory committee and both Houses of Parliament. By providing these reassurances and putting in place the safeguards I have detailed, I hope I have provided the reassurances the noble Baroness seeks. I suspect they will not assuage the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, on this issue, but that is where we are. There is a long-held aspiration of heading for a single working-age benefit, with all the personalisation and benefits that will come with it. It would be a step along the way to have two working age benefits rather than three, and that is an achievement for which we should strive. Clearly removing income support at an appropriate time, when no one is on it and we have dealt with all the benefit claimants in another way, is right. I hope the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.