Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, raised some important points. This is not an easy area—it is extremely difficult. We know from examples in Birmingham, where police have been trying to do these things, that they have found this extremely useful. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, asked why we cannot go ahead with the prosecution of people whom we know have been involved in gang activity. The answer is that often we cannot get enough evidence to make a case that will stand up—certainly not in short order. It is extremely difficult with gangs to get enough evidence. They use intimidation and have oaths of loyalty. It is absolutely right that a considerable number of gang members are under 18. However, there are particularly nasty gangs—noble Lords may remember the incident of a biker being shot on the M40—that often have members who are older than 18 and in key positions to run them. It is not just an under-18 problem—it is broader than that. The points raised by the noble and learned Lord are good ones. I cannot answer them in detail now. If noble Lords will permit, I will come back on Report with a more complete answer on some of those complex issues. This has been thought through, but I am not for a moment underestimating how difficult and complex it is. However, that does not mean that we should not try to do it, because we have had good results from trials. On these gang issues, unusually, I have had very supportive letters from various chief constables and police forces, saying how keen they are to move down this route. I assure noble Lords that it is unusual for me to get supportive letters—normally I do not. So I believe that the measures are important and ask that the amendment be withdrawn.