Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, if I can make myself heard, I will introduce myself by saying that although there is a new face at the Dispatch Box on this subject, it does not signify a different approach to the Bill. However, there will inevitably be a change of style. Our amendments in this group are designed to probe various aspects of the new offence, and clarify what the Government are intending to achieve. Why, in a word, will the new provision work? The Government are right to address the scourge of underage drinking. My noble friends Lady Hanham and Lord Bridgeman spoke of the Conservative Party’s commitment to take seriously this growing problem. The shadow Secretary of State laid out further policies last week to address a problem that has only grown worse under the Labour Government. The phrase of the former Prime Minister, "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", has become a soubriquet for continuing lawlessness. I am therefore extremely doubtful that this measure will do anything significant. First, there are already numerous powers on the statute book that the Government have brought in, in the hope that they would be used to protect communities, and the children involved in serious underage drinking. It is evident from the crime and health figures that these powers are simply not working. The problem is too great to be solved by another minor offence being added to the patchwork that we have seen over the past 13 years. This is one more example of an area where the Government have run out of steam, endlessly tweaking existing legislation rather than getting to grips with the problem and going back to basics. I also have a few questions about the offence that my amendments are designed to probe. For example, Justice has raised the possibility that the interaction between this clause and the previous one will lead young people to be forced to incriminate themselves for a criminal offence. Will the Minister confirm whether the power in Clause 29 to take a name and address will be used to build up evidence for this offence? How else will the police know whether the same young person has been caught three times? I would also appreciate more clarity on the level of penalty that will be imposed. Presumably, in cases where the person is under 17, the case will be held in the youth courts. What penalty would then be considered appropriate? Is my contention correct that the clause is intended to work solely in conjunction with the amended offence in Clause 29? If so, why does the legislation not make it obvious that there is a clear progression from two strikes involving confiscation to an offence on the third occasion? Amendment 108 explores what might be considered a reasonable excuse. Is the presence of an adult sufficient, as current legislation would suggest? If so, why is that not specified? In the debates in another place, the attitude of "Of course that would be a reasonable excuse" came up a lot; and it is easy to think of situations where prosecution for an offence would be completely unwarranted. Unfortunately, with vague legislation one can almost guarantee that power will be applied inappropriately, and another young person will be criminalised. The Minister must be clearer about what sort of behaviour will fall on the wrong side of the line, and what will be considered acceptable. It is very easy to talk in black and white in this House, but it is always the grey that occurs on our country’s streets that causes problems. Amendment 109 is intended to explore why the Government did not limit this offence to open containers only, as is the case in other legislation. I should say that I think I know the answer following a private discussion with the Minister this morning, but I think that it should be public knowledge. Amendment 110 is designed to probe the definition of a "public place". Current legislation allows 16 and 17 year-olds to drink on licensed premises, yet here we are making it an offence for them to drink persistently in a park, for example. It appears that even where a family has hired a public place for a private party an offence could still be committed if it were to happen three times within a year. Is that the case? If so, why? I beg to move.