Policing and Crime Bill

As we move from sex to alcohol, I am reminded of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who wished to declare an interest on the second day in Committee, although I do not know whether he did. I suppose that I should declare an interest: I find that, within proper bounds, in the correct circumstances and in moderation, alcohol is rather enjoyable. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, saying that I know full well the effects of having too much alcohol perhaps is a little more than I would have declared. Clause 27 increases the maximum fine for refusing to comply with a police officer’s instructions to stop drinking—a person might or might not be very drunk—and/or to surrender alcohol—again, a person might or might not be very drunk—in a person’s possession in a designated public place—to which I shall return in a minute—from £500, a level 2 fine, to £2,500, a level 4 fine. An offence is committed when a person fails to comply with police instructions to do that. I said that a person might not necessarily be very drunk and a couple of speakers have talked about that already. He is liable to a penalty notice disorder, a PND, and, on summary conviction, to a maximum fine of, at the moment, £500. Increasing the maximum fine for this offence will bring it in line with the maximum penalty for a similar offence of failing to comply with directions to leave. So this fine will not be out on its own. Since 2001, local authorities have implemented 712 designated public place orders, DPPOs, throughout England and Wales. This clearly shows that local authorities support this power and believe that it will tackle the disorder and nuisance associated with alcohol consumption. In areas where a DPPO is in effect, local authorities must put up signs to show the public that they are in a DPPO and to show the maximum penalty. In a sense, the fact that the DPPO signs are there answers the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. You could argue that if a person is very drunk, he or she will not be able to read, but this is aimed at people at all stages of intoxication. Those who might be tempted to ignore a police officer’s instructions to stop drinking or surrender alcohol may reconsider their actions if they think they will be prosecuted for a fine of up to £2,500. So far the maximum of £500 has not been used; it has been percentages of that. Putting it up to £2,500 shows all those involved, and those imposing the penalties, how seriously we take this. A percentage of the £2,500 could be way over the £500. Even if the fines do not reach the maximum, the clause will send a clear message to deter the type of alcohol-related disorder and nuisance that we see in these areas. The noble Baroness asked what happens if they are absolutely screaming drunk. I am afraid that when people get to that stage nothing makes a difference. There are a lot of stages before that where these things can have some impact. In Committee in the other place concerns were raised that this clause will not have the intended effect when people are told what to do. I can tell that that concern is shared here as well. I hope I am covering some of the points that make me think it will. Statistics from the Ministry of Justice show an increasing number of PNDs issued for breach of this offence, with a twofold increase in the past two years. Some 485 individuals received a PND for this offence in 2004, 712 in 2005, 1,061 in 2006 and 1,544 in 2007. The increasing number of PNDs issued for breach of this offence strongly suggests that although DPPOs have proved useful for their intended purpose, more can be done to increase their deterrence effect. We consider that increasing the consequences of breaching a DPPO will deter more people from refusing to comply with police instructions to stop drinking or to surrender alcohol in these areas. This will also incentivise more local authorises to use DPPOs as an effective solution to their area’s alcohol-related disorder and nuisance. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, asked if we are working with the police and enforcement agencies, and how much dealings we have with them. We are dealing with them across the board, talking through with them their full range of available tools and powers. Increasing this maximum penalty was one they discussed. As has been said by other speakers, this is not the only thing. There are a whole range of things one has got to use. The noble Viscount and the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, also asked whether we had done much training of front-line enforcement practitioners. So far we have trained 1,300 in use of appropriate powers and other ways of trying to do this. We have also talked about this maximum penalty. I have touched on the designated area issue and have covered most of the points. We believe that this will, with all the other measures, make an impact. You are not always dealing with someone who is absolutely out of their brain. Below that level, people will know how seriously we now take this. It will match other similar fines for this level of behaviour. I hope that those assurances will calm the worries of the Committee. I know we all have the same desire to stop this dreadful behaviour. It is a question of how we go about it. I beg to move that Clause 27 stand part of the Bill.