Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

These amendments mirror the focus of the debate that we had on our second day in Committee concerning consultation between the National Apprenticeship Service—as part of the Skills Funding Agency—employers, sector skills councils and others. I share the view that local authorities, when engaging in the commissioning process and drawing up plans, need to encourage employers to participate. We could have a semantic debate about exactly what that means but I do not want to. I agree with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that we want employers to be involved in the consultative process—and not just employers but also sector skills councils and others. The noble Baroness, Lady Perry, rightly reminded us of the reservoir of knowledge and experience that exists in the colleges. They have the contact with the employers and they know exactly what the needs are. We need a coherent, holistic approach to this. We all agree that partnership working is the way ahead and that consultation will take place. By its very nature as a customer-focused service, having insights into employer needs and getting feedback from employers will be central to the delivery of services by the National Apprenticeship Service and, indeed, all the other services that will be housed within the Skills Funding Agency. This means that active engagement with employers and others will be a part of its core activity. We have already said that we will reflect further on whether direct reference should be made in the Bill to consultation by the chief executive of skills funding with employers, sector skills councils and others, and I repeat our genuine commitment to reflect on that. Employers will also have a key role to play alongside local authorities in ensuring that there are sufficient high-quality training options for learners, improving the choice available to young people and ensuring that they have a range of options to choose from. We are putting in place arrangements to ensure that this engagement happens at every level, although we have tended to focus on employers, and I understand exactly why we are doing that. The noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, spoke about their role and said that we talk about a demand-led process. We do and we stand by that. But "demand-led" does not just mean employers; it means learners as well. We have to embrace both if we are serious about reflecting on and reaching the needs of young people—and not-so-young people—in this process. I make a plea that in this debate we do not forget, when we talk about this being demand-led, that we are embracing not just employers but also learners. Clause 41 places a new duty on local authorities to encourage employers to participate in the provision and delivery of post-16 education and training. I echo the point made by my noble friend Lady Blackstone that it is hard to envisage a local authority that would not want to engage with employers, who, after all, are going to be the source of wealth generation within their communities. It is vital that they are brought into a consultative process. Local authorities are well placed to perform that duty. They have a wealth of experience in dealing with employers, particularly through their education business partnerships and their existing local strategic partnerships. Employers are also critical members of consortia and the 14 to 19 partnerships in delivering 14 to 19 reforms in local areas. When we talk about employers being engaged at every level, we mean that; indeed, they already are. At a regional level, the employer voice will be heard through the regional development agencies and membership of the regional planning groups, which have an interest in ensuring that the economic and skills agency for the region is reflected in local authority commissioning plans. That said, the arguments in relation to consultation with employers by local authorities are different from those that apply at the national level to the chief executive of skills funding. The main relationship with the sector skills councils will rightly be with the National Apprenticeship Service. Local authority engagement will be through the provision in new Section 15ZA that requires local authorities to co-operate with the chief executive in the provision of apprenticeships for young people. We feel that these are the appropriate channels. Of course, employers make up and lie at the heart of the sector skills councils. A requirement on each of the 152 local authorities to consult directly every sector skills council would place a significant burden on them. They have to be cognisant of what sector skills councils are doing. However, when we talk about placing a requirement on them to consult directly, we have to recognise that there are 25 sector skills councils. We want to ensure that, when local authorities are drawing up their commissioning plans, they are responding to the needs of employers and learners. While I understand that you might want to include a direct duty on local authorities to consult local businesses on the exercise of their duties under new Section 15ZA, we need to look at how that will function and whether there really is that need to do it in that way. First, it is a natural consequence of the duty in Clause 41 on encouraging local businesses to provide apprenticeships and other training that there will be a consultative dialogue. Secondly, this dialogue is already happening through the education business partnerships, existing local strategic partnerships and, at a regional level, the regional development agencies. It would seem unnecessarily burdensome to overlay that with a further requirement to consult. Thirdly, there is already an expectation that local authorities will consult their communities on issues that affect them, which they would do anyway in the normal course of events. Finally, employers will also be involved in co-operation arrangements with colleges through the duties in Clause 248, which were introduced by amendment in another place. I hope that all this reassures the Committee about the centrality of employers to these reforms. I turn now to specific points that have been made and, first, to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I agree that chambers of commerce have an important role to play. Last year, I spent a lot of time going around them when they were dealing with things like skills pledges. They will have a seat on the employer reference group. In addition, the Secretary of State will issue guidance to the Skills Funding Agency about whom it should consult. We expect that to include the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce and, probably, the Federation of Small Businesses. At the moment, I do not think that I am empowered to deal with the noble Lord’s point about jobcentres and managers. If I had a view, I would not necessarily dismiss the approach, but I would say that we should ensure that jobcentres are able to respond to the circumstances that currently prevail and to deal with a wide range of people. I know that some of those who go into jobcentres and agencies are people who would not normally have been expected to be in that situation. We need to look at how that service is being provided. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, asked about LSC staff transferring to local authorities. We are still working to match LSC staff to posts in local authorities. We must and will ensure that local authorities have the skills to conduct these functions. If there are vacancies, we will identify them in time to enable local authorities to access staff with the right skills before the transfer is effected, subject to the passage of the Bill. We take on board the noble Baroness’s point—we have to deal with the vacancy situation. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about apprenticeships in social work. That is being considered by the social work task force. We are talking about a work-based qualification. I noted the range of views that were expressed on this issue. I share the perspective of the noble Earl, who said that we should not rule out an apprenticeship route. We may in the end determine that a degree is required, but a vocational route would seem to be of benefit in attracting a wide range of people to social services. That is not to denigrate in any way the requirement for degree qualifications. In conclusion, I say that wherever you look in the process of commissioning and engagement, we are involving employers. I stress that we need to ensure also that young people between 14 and 19 have real choice through information, advice and guidance. We want to ensure that the autonomous providers—schools with sixth forms, FE colleges, academies, private training providers—can each determine their capacity, ethos, curriculum and methods of delivery, own their own buildings and land and employ their own staff. They clearly possess autonomy and are involved in the commissioning process. Local authorities are strategic leaders in their area, bringing a holistic view to the commissioning of all services for young people. Employers, as I said, engage through local strategic partnerships, which drive local area agreements. I repeat our commitment in relation to putting sector skills councils in the Bill. We indicated our concern not to introduce anything that would make the Bill a hybrid. We will look at that concern. I repeat also our assurance that we are as concerned as all noble Lords to ensure that there is a clear understanding. We are talking not just about participation by employers but about making sure that they are involved in the consultation process. We will look also at that and come back to noble Lords to make clear exactly where employers will be involved in the commissioning process.