Policing and Crime Bill

I find myself in agreement with most of the criticisms made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, of Clause 13 as it stands. I am not sure that I go with them in supporting this amendment, but I am with them in their basic criticism of the clause. I sat through the previous debate, though I did not take part. As noble Lords who were here will know, it lasted for about an hour and was fully comprehensive on all sorts of matters, including what we are discussing now. However, I did not hear the Minister explain with any clarity what the justification was for making a person who obtains sexual services from a controlled prostitute liable for a criminal offence irrespective of his knowledge, likely knowledge or "should-be knowledge" of whether the prostitute giving her services had been forced to do so. I am still extremely unclear on that point, except—although he is not in his place, I am referring here to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington—on the basis that the Government’s real objective is to bring about an end to, or a ban on, the provision of sexual services for money. If that is the Government’s intention, Clause 13 is a most powerful deterrent to a man obtaining sexual services from a prostitute; irrespective of whether or not he knew that she was controlled, he would be liable under the Bill. I am therefore against Clause 13. As with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, the reason why I am uncertain about being in favour of the amendment is that, with all the good will in the world towards an amendment of this kind, and for the legal policy reasons that have been explained by those who have spoken before me, I do not think it would achieve its objective. Looking at it from the prosecution’s point of view, how on earth in practice is the prosecution going to prove, except in the most remote cases, knowledge or "ought-to-have knowledge" of the controlled nature of the prostitute’s services? In amending the Government’s Bill we would be putting forward a criminal offence that would be almost impossible to prove. If the amendment were part of the law, those who control the prostitute would make it their business to ensure that the women concerned made no reference to, and gave no indication of, where they had come from in Eastern Europe or wherever, how they had got there or anything else. Therefore, although I support what has been said in criticism of Clause 13, I do not feel that I can support the amendment. I would rather simply eliminate Clause 13 and, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, explained in the previous debate, use more effectively the existing laws we have against traffickers. We should go for the traffickers, not the man or the woman seeking or providing sexual services.