Welfare Reform Bill

We might finish Clause 2 within the next hour, but chance would be a fine thing. The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, described the procedure rather dismissively as only an affirmative process with a few bells and whistles attached. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, agreed with that and indeed repeated it. While I congratulate the Liberal Democrats on this long and complicated amendment, I have to say that I have difficulty with all sorts of things in it, and it would surprise me very much if the Minister did not agree with me to a great extent. The difficulties start as early as proposed new subsection (1) which begins by saying: ""Before the Secretary of State makes any regulations"—" which subsection (8) says are to be made by affirmative resolution—various things have to happen which I shall come to in a moment. The Minister told us on Tuesday last that the original regulations may need to be changed relatively quickly as experience of the pathfinders develops. I take his point that certainly after the original regulation, it is appropriate to use negative regulations for doing that. I note, however, that he did not go as far as to suggest that the first regulations to be made under new Clauses 17A and 17B should be affirmative. However, that is not the proposal in this amendment, which refers to "any regulations", and thus means each and every time orders are laid. I really cannot support that proposal. My second concern is something that I am surprised was not picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. While something must happen before the new sections are introduced in Wales, the rest of the country is ignored. This Bill covers England, Wales and Scotland, but nowhere do we find out what is proposed, in this super-affirmative way of doing things, for Scotland. Next, the amendment calls for draft regulations to be issued after a report has been laid before Parliament giving details of the consultations held under subsection (1) and explaining the proposals. Parliament then has six sitting weeks to report and comment on it. Only then can the Secretary of State lay the final order. I really must ask the noble Baroness how long all this is expected to last; that is, up to the time when Jobcentre Plus staff can actually start to use the provisions in new Sections 17A and 17B, which to my mind are wholly beneficial. The whole proposal seems to be a delaying tactic, which should not be necessary each time an order is made. Pilots, pathfinders or whatever, are investigations as to exactly what will work when a scheme is rolled out across the country. Of course they may need to be changed as they progress, especially as they are now to be extended to three years—and three years may subsequently become another three years or even another three years after that—according to the Bill. That is before they are introduced across the country as a whole. Incidentally, we have had an answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, about the difference between a pathfinder and a pilot. I would be grateful if the Minister could elucidate that for us. Pilots are defined in Schedule 1, but nowhere can I find reference to a pathfinder. Lastly, I find this amendment to be rather previous. The objective of all of us in the Grand Committee is to find out exactly what are the concrete proposals hidden in this framework Bill. Although the Minister does not like it, we are trying to pin him down. As our debate on Tuesday and earlier this afternoon show, we are having some success, but only when we have finished will we know whether the long drawn-out procedure envisaged by the amendment will be necessary or appropriate. My guess is that it will not.