Welfare Reform Bill

I must say, especially after what we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, that I am curious to hear what the Minister has to say in response to the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, is concerned that workers under the scheme will, by being paid less than the going rate, either end up on less than the minimum wage or undercut existing workers by working essentially for free. However, they are not working for free, are they? They are still on benefit, and that is the whole point of the exercise. There may be an argument that they are taking work away from other potential employees. I could understand that, but surely it is in the interests of the unions to obtain more members—union membership has been declining for many years—and the way they are going to get new members is by having members in employment. The Child Poverty Action Group has described the provisions in the Bill as "workfare", with which I disagree, but it has come up with a figure of £1.73 per hour by combining current JSA rates with a 35-hour week as the amount that some participants may get. I think the noble Baroness is also getting at this. I do not think that this is an accurate way of regarding back-to-work schemes where people are being moved into the labour market. However, I expect that the Minister will enjoy the opportunity to put the record straight by saying that the Government do not intend to undermine their own minimum-wage rules. In that connection, in fairly recent times we have had anecdotal reports of workers being paid less than the minimum wage. Has the Minister any information on this point? If so, what are the Government doing about employers that are breaking the law in this respect? This is all part of the noble Baroness’s argument.