Policing and Crime Bill

My Lords, this debate has, as usual, been very constructive, and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I have to say as a relative newcomer to this House that I agree with a number of the speakers. I am surprised at how little time seems to be given to some legislation in the other place. It is a very important function of this place to provide some. I am glad that we can give these Bills more time and look at them in great detail. Today’s contributions have already demonstrated the remarkable depth of knowledge in a number of areas. It is important that we can take these matters into account. It is also not surprising that there have been all these inputs because the Bill is important and wide-ranging. The Bill has been called a hotchpotch but, as I said, it contains different and important provisions. As has been highlighted, we will go into some of them in great deal in Committee and on Report. I welcome that. It is important that it should happen. Before going any further I should mention that my noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate talked about the complexity of policing now. I think that all noble Lords would agree that we have the most remarkable police force. One can always highlight problems here, there and everywhere, but we are supported by the most remarkable police force. I think that we all have nothing but admiration for the vast majority of them and the amazingly difficult job they do, which is increasingly difficult in this modern age. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, ran through a number of issues which other speakers covered later. She expressed nervousness about the issue of gangs, gang-related activity and the fact that the Bill provides for a civil order. However, the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, said from his experience of talking to the Americans that civil orders work well against gangs. When I travel round the country talking to local authorities and local groups I find that some local people regard ASBOs, which are similar to civil orders, as very successful. The noble Baroness also touched on extradition and the JCHR’s concerns there. I think that there will be a considerable and reasoned debate on the issue but I shall not go into it now. A number of speakers also touched on the issue of DNA. My view on this issue is very different from that of some people, but, judging by the comments made today, I think that we will have a useful exploration of it. There is no doubt that many feel very passionately about it. I could produce one family after another who could tell your Lordships that the only reason why the murderer or rapist of their loved one was caught was access to DNA held on the database. The person may not have been found guilty after the DNA was taken but it was still sitting there on the database. There are some truly emotive issues here and they need to be developed. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, touched on the Home Secretary's resignation. I have to say that I have been very impressed by the Home Secretary and have liked working for her. She has had a focused bad press, and I fear that part of the reason for it is the fact that she is a woman. She is the first woman to have held the job, which is remarkable and a great achievement. In a few years’ time, when all the froth, phlegm and everything else dies down, the situation can be looked at properly and I think that she will be seen as a good Home Secretary. She is also the first woman to have done it. It is unfortunate that there has been such a focus against her. She is a good woman and I have enjoyed working with her. The noble Baroness mentioned that we cannot solve problems by locking people up. I could not agree more. This point was touched on by a number of speakers. That is certainly not what we are trying to do. There has to be a balance between the public’s demand that those who commit crimes should be caught and punished and trying to give people opportunities to develop, to look after them and to bring them on. I understand that. It is certainly not our intention to criminalise everything and to try to put ever more people into prison. Overall, however, apart from some serious aspects of crime on which the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, touched, crime has dramatically decreased over the past 10 years or so. We have had success in this area. The noble Baroness also touched on Clause 2 and the sex industry, as did a number of other speakers. There are some really big issues here which need to be developed and I have considerable sympathy with some of the views expressed. We have to ensure that we make these women safer, not less safe. We also have to stop trafficking, rules on which are already in place. We have to look at it very carefully. The intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, demonstrated that there are different views on the issue. We need a real debate on it and to go into it in depth. I welcome that as well. I was specifically asked whether the gang provisions will be used against under-18s. They will not. They are aimed very much at the very serious gangs identified in the Bill. They are aimed very much at the sort of people who carried out that shooting on the M4, where they shot a chap in the head. It is those sorts of gangs, not the gangs on the street corners in Hackney where I have visited. The provisions are aimed not at those youngsters but specifically at these very serious gangs who are a real worry to the police, who have to do something. As I say, my noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate described how in America they have resolved this issue in a similar way. We have also found the experience in Birmingham useful, which has encouraged us to go down this route. The noble Baroness also touched on cybercrime, where we have really got our act together now; we had not two years ago. A huge amount of work has gone on. I chaired the national security forum the other day, where we looked at this. It is going to NSID, the Cabinet committee that looks after our security. We are now well on track on this, and there will be some interesting work on it coming out this summer based on that. I cannot agree on the issue of US/UK extradition. The difference of guilt required used to be very unbalanced. It is now very closely balanced, but we can debate that when we get to this point in Committee and on Report. There was also some talk, as touched on by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich, of these things being rather like control orders. They are very different, and I could go through a whole list of the reasons why; I will not because we will no doubt do so in Committee. I thank the noble Earl, Lord Rosslyn for his input. It was a remarkable tour de force on the problem of alcoholism, which a number of other speakers touched on. It is really awful. In parts of Britain at times it is like Hogarth’s engraving "Gin Lane". I know from my time in the Navy that about 90 per cent of serious crimes that I saw at my table had alcohol as part of the problem. I am afraid that the same is true in civil life. It is a difficult area and we are trying to get to grips with it. I understand the issues of, and concerns about, child protection. We will have to tease out the real issues there during the passage of the Bill. We must try to get to grips with it. We are taking a comprehensive approach with our alcohol action plan, but we must make absolutely certain that we do not put very young children in danger by moving them on—I will go into more detail on this a little later, if necessary. We will ensure that the police are aware of these risks. They have other abilities to ensure that these youngsters are looked after and taken home, or whatever, so that that does not need to happen. I agree absolutely with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Norwich that legislation cannot solve everything. However, we have had a major impact on the reduction of crime—not by criminalising everything, but there is an element of being quite hard and focused on ensuring that people are punished if they have done something wrong. However, we have also done other things to make life better, to look after people and to drag them out of poverty. Sadly, we are in a world with a requirement for punishment; I do not think that there is a nirvana where that does not exist. With the prostitution measure, we are trying to look at rehabilitation much more. If we are not achieving that, I hope that it will be debated and come out in Committee. I could go on at great length about Clause 29 lowering the bounds of criminality and things like that but, looking at the time, these things will come out in Committee. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, talked about a consolidation Bill. I have sympathy with this. There has been a huge amount of legislation. I would rather like some way of simplifying and consolidating it, as the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, also mentioned. However, I am afraid that I cannot promise that something like that is happening. We intend doing it on immigration, and there would be a lot of merit in doing so here but it is not happening at the moment. As has been touched on by a lot of speakers, we are doing a great deal of work to reduce police bureaucracy and red tape. A lot of these things were identified in the Green Paper and other studies, by Flanagan and others. We are still not there, but we have done a great deal and intend to do even more. However, we should be proud of the fact that we have put huge investment into the police. There has been a dramatic increase in numbers from when we came into power in 1997. A lot of the stuff we are doing in collaboration and police careers is because, when it is looked at locally, people do not see the overall picture. I have noticed in the military, for example, that we spot young officers, grow them, send them to the right slots and say, "This man could be an admiral one day". We do that very carefully, but it is not really done in the police because it is so broken up. That needs to be done, and we hope that this will help us to move down that sort of route. It is the same with senior appointments, where one can look at what this means for jobs that they might do in the future. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, touched on the issue of the prostitution measures being counterproductive —I think I have covered that—and the concern of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Again, we will have to address exactly what it has raised on these issues. She eloquently showed the real issues of being trafficked and the real problems that these poor women have to get into the position that they are in. As I say, we are aiming more at rehabilitation. We will have to debate whether we are actually achieving that. The noble Baroness also asked me whether I had been up to Glasgow. I was educated in Clydebank, but I am afraid that I have not been up to look at the set-up there. I will certainly find out about it. Some good things are clearly being done there. I have a number of answers I could go through on aspects of collaboration using the current Section 23 and the fact that the Secretary of State already has a power to mandate collaboration. There is no point in going into this because we will debate these issues at length. Similarly, on the issue of the clauses giving too much power to the Secretary of State, there already is a senior appointments panel. Putting it on a statutory footing will increase its independence. Again, however, we will have more of a debate about that. The noble Baroness asked me if anyone would phone anonymously on the prostitution issue. I think that they might do because, of course, it is anonymous, and they would therefore not be giving anything way—but one cannot be absolutely sure of that. Our aim is to do more on supporting routes out of prostitution. Perhaps we are not doing enough, and this can come out in Committee. My noble friend Lord Simon really raised the same issues on prostitution that have been covered by a number of other noble Lords. As I say, this will have to be debated. The noble Lord, Lord Patten, asked about the cost of civil servants’ time. It is a good question. When I was a younger officer in the MoD in the 1980s and early 1990s, people were not putting in the order for the amphibious shipping that I felt was absolutely essential. It was delayed year on year and I kept trying to find the details of that cost. I think the noble Lord knows that getting those costs out of the Civil Service is remarkably difficult, so I cannot give him precise costs for that Civil Service time—plus ça change. The noble Lord talked about reducing red tape. As I have said, we have done a great deal on that. I have great faith in the police’s adaptability and ability to look at legislation and use it in a sensible way, rather than as if they have been driven down a particular route. I share the noble Lord’s view that large swathes of the West Country do not seem to have any Labour councillors. Clearly, he feels that this is a great loss and we will have to do something about that. The noble Lord, Lord Patten, talked about whether this large package of measures will actually make any difference at all. They will. I believe that the measures to toughen the offence of having alcohol and being moved on—the £2,500—will. There will be signs saying how much it is. It brings it in line with the maximum penalty for similar offences. It will play a small part in the totality of all these things. I think that it will make a difference. I can honestly say to the noble Lord that I have absolutely no desire to be the Home Secretary. I say that quite happily on the Floor of the House and he can quote me on that as much as he likes. However, I thank him for all the praise that he lavished on me as he was leading me down that route. As regards the Blunkett review on police accountability, I understand that the findings of the report on how to make the police more accountable will feature in the Labour Party manifesto. I could go into a whole raft of issues about reducing bureaucracy and red tape but I do not think tonight is the time to do that. As I say, I think we have quite a good record on that but we can do more, and we must do more. Some of the statistics touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, and others regarding the percentage of time people spend filling out forms show that something is wrong. We need to get people out on the beat doing things. I strongly support the views expressed by my noble friend Lady Henig about selecting commissioners. I know the policy of those opposite on this matter. It sounds a bit like sheriffs and what is happening in America and I cannot say that I think it is a particularly good idea. I also agree with her about the problems we have with our 43 police forces and some of the small ones and getting them to work together. We are trying to achieve something in that area. It is useful to have noble Lords with a depth of knowledge such as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, acquired during his time with the Thames Valley Police. He spoke about the number of officers who were removed from that area by the previous Government. I think he would be the first to agree that we have put huge resources into that area. There is a huge number of extra police there. If we can drive down the red tape more, that will be even better and the police will work better. The noble Lord asked whether I had visited inner-city areas and seen what they were like. I live in Hackney and I regularly walk down through to get the Bethnal Green tube, and I go to Stepney and Shoreditch. Therefore, I do know those areas. Although at certain times of night and at the weekend things can be a little bit tricky, compared with the situation when I went there many years ago, lots of things are much better. There are lots of areas in our inner cities where things are better. There are still some horrible parts but I do not think that we need to talk ourselves down too much in this regard. We have done a lot to improve some parts and that is a good thing. Going back 40 years, there were areas that were horrible ghettos where no one ever went to and no one could really get out of. Therefore, we had no visibility of them. That has changed now and that is a good thing. As regards Surrey, which is not part of the Bill, all I would say is that it is a good aspiration to keep council tax down. Only two forces in the country have not been able to do that and keep within the cap—Surrey is one of those. The other police forces in the doughnut surrounding London do not have the same problem, so I am not completely convinced about the problems that noble Lords have talked about. I know that we have debated that on the Floor of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned speaking to the Home Office about strategy and things. I personally am a great believer in mission command. One should make very clear to the people who work for you what your head mark and main aim is and then let them get on with it. That is a very good way of doing things and if they get it wrong, you chop their legs off. One of the problems in government is that it is very difficult to chop people’s legs off for doing things; it was much easier in the military. However, I am not saying that I should go around chopping people’s legs off. The noble Lord raised the very valid issue of co-ordination, but, my goodness me, it is complex and very difficult. However, it is a very good point. I would like to think that I have done this in the counterterrorist arena over the past two years, but it is not easy. It is a very difficult thing, but with counterterrorism, in terms of all the bits and pieces, it is easier to achieve this with than all of the issues that the noble Lord was talking about. But I think that we have to try to go down that route. It is a good point and we have to think very hard about trying to achieve that. The noble Lord also touched on Surrey, but he has heard what I have said on that. Whenever I think of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I now have this vision of a panda because when bamboo flowers, that is when the pandas eat it. So I have this vision of a panda whenever I think of him. I have to say that I have never thought of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, as a humble Cross-Bencher. That had never really struck me, but still. My noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey made an eloquent speech on Part 1 in which his experience in the Metropolitan Police Authority was clearly shown. He asked why the Audit Commission was not on the face of the Bill. That is because it gets its power of inspection through local government legislation while HMIC gets it through the Police Act. That is the reason for that. He also touched on the dangers of the measure conflicting with other Acts. That is something we will have to look at but I was grateful for his support for the airport security measures, which I think are important. He asked about the time limit on arbitration. We need timely resolutions. The matter is flexible but we might need to address that. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke eloquently of her concerns about children, alcohol and reasonable excuse. This is a very difficult matter. I have been given examples by officials in the Box of a young person having a part-time job that required him to deliver alcohol—that would be a reasonable excuse—or helping a family member or another to transport alcohol. However, I accept and understand what she is saying. This is a difficult matter. I have faith in the police to apply those sort of things sensibly but I understand where she is coming from on that. The noble Baroness touched on gangs and youngsters. But, as I say, the gang measure is very much aimed at these very specific, very serious gangs. The Bill explains what they are like. We are not really going for the small groups of youngsters on street corners. As I say, we have found that this gangs measure was very valuable in Birmingham. The noble Baroness asked whether that was the case. She asked why we thought that we needed to issue directions to someone to leave a place in Clause 31 given the availability of other curfew powers. Sometimes it is more appropriate to use the light touch power to move people on rather than institute a curfew or invoke the other powers. Again, it is a question of balance in dealing with both those things. In terms of alcohol related directions to leave a place, I think it is probably best to leave this to Committee as there is a long, complex argument on why this makes sense. I think that it makes sense to wait until then. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, went into the whole issue of alcohol. I got the feeling that she supported the fact that we are trying to do something there and that we are not trying to get at people who drink normally. I enjoy a drink and I think that most people do. It is a matter of doing it sensibly. The problem is the heavily focused binge drinking, which is disastrous. I was very glad of the noble Baroness’s general support for those various measures. A number of noble Lords asked about what, I suppose, is a carrot-and-stick approach to things, and whether we are just focusing on punishing people or whether it goes a little wider. The answer is that we are looking at things like personal, social and health education, and education on alcohol. We launched a £4 million media campaign to challenge attitudes to drink; so we are trying to do a lot of things in the alcohol arena. I thank my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester for his general support for some of these measures, but I absolutely take his point on Part 2, which a number of noble Lords touched on. It is an issue on which there will be a long and interesting debate. I have already thanked my noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate for his support, and I assure him that we are continuing the monitoring of predatory paedophiles. That will not reduce. I gave some figures in my opening address, but as a guide in rough-handful terms, as regards the retained DNA of people who had not been found guilty of anything, between April 2004 and 2005 about 3,000 offences were matched, and a lot of those were very serious. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, very eloquently rounded up on a number of issues that had been touched on in the debate. He talked about national targets, police reform and what had come out of the Green Paper. As we look at Part 1 in Committee, we can develop the arguments on those important issues. Again, he raised the issue of Part 2 and prostitution, and we shall have to debate that. All of us are completely against trafficking and the exploitation of women in this way; they are treated really badly. It is a question of how we can best handle that to make them safer and to solve some of these problems. We must not drive this under ground. The points that the noble Lord raised on the CRB and disclosures was interesting, and there will be an interesting debate on that. On the Private Member’s Bill on rehabilitation of offenders, I get into enough trouble as it is. If I stood here and said, "Yes, the Government will support it", I would be terribly told off, so I had better not say anything at the moment. However, I await with interest to see how that goes. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, mentioned red tape. We have actually dramatically driven down the number of management consultants we use in the Home Office. I think that too many consultants are used across government, so I have instituted something whereby every month my man who is responsible for contracts comes to tell me how he has reduced the number. We have some very good people and we do not want to keep using consultants and paying them flipping great wodges of cash, so I am driving the number down. I think that we have done quite a lot there. I look forward to a very interesting debate on the status of ACPO—as I am sure ACPO will. One always gets different views from ACPO, so it is always interesting dealing with it. The noble Viscount was absolutely right to raise the danger of unintended consequences; we have to be really careful about that and it always has to be thought about. I know that I have not specifically answered every question. I could have done, but I hope that I have given a flavour of where I am coming from. I thank all noble Lords for the part that they have played in this debate. It has been very enlightening and shows this House at its best by exposing those issues at Second Reading. Strangely, I actually look forward to continuing our discussions in Committee. I commend the Bill. Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.