Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important matter. He is right that under international law the UK is responsible for our treaty obligations undertaken in respect of the territories. There is no disagreement with him on that at all. Before a treaty can be extended to an overseas territory, the UK must be satisfied that the treaty obligations can be fulfilled by the territory. Consultation with territories regarding the extension of a treaty is clearly a matter of good policy and administration. Under international law, we are ultimately responsible for the due performance of treaty obligations undertaken in respect of the territories. I do not have an argument with the noble Lord in that respect. However, that is rather different from saying that the provisions of the Bill need to be reflected as regards the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories. I do not think that we can pull it all together and say that, given the requirements of international treaty organisations, the Bill is defective in relation to those territories and dependencies. We could not allow the legislation to do that. The noble Lord also asked me about responsibility and the interdepartmental group. Alas, I have made inquiries about when the group last met but I am afraid that I have not yet found out. However, he can be assured that we will find out and I will let him have that information as soon as possible. I am sure that we are all eager to know. As regards departmental responsibility, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is, not surprisingly, the lead department for overseas territories. The Ministry of Justice is the lead department for the Crown dependencies. Indeed, I think that my noble friend Lord Bach is the Minister responsible. I am sure that he wishes that he were present to answer the noble Lord’s questions on this fascinating matter. However, I shall ensure that my noble friend is aware of what we have discussed. Clearly, these are interesting issues. My department, Defra, has an interest in biodiversity as the lead department on that in the UK. Other departments have relevant interests. The Department for International Development clearly has an interest in these matters. I am sure that DCMS is included due to maritime heritage issues. The noble Lord will recall that my noble friends and the noble Baroness who debated this issue were ever anxious for DCMS to produce a Bill on that basis. On the problem of what I think can be called the white space—I think that the noble Lord was referring to the Isle of Man, but he could have referred to the Channel Islands—whatever the constitutional arrangements are, it is important that as far as possible there is an integrated approach between the UK Government, the devolved Administrations and the Crown dependencies. I hope that I can reassure him on this basis, because, first of all, we engage regularly with the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey on relevant marine environmental issues. The Isle of Man supported much of the Bill and will be bringing forward its own legislative proposals in due course. It is undertaking a three-year project to designate the first marine nature reserve in Manx waters and aims to implement the first site by 2011. I also understand that the Isle of Man Administration have been involved in projects to ensure a consistent and co-ordinated approach to marine management across the Irish Sea. The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are part of the British-Irish Council subgroup on integrated coastal zone management. I had the honour to chair a meeting of Environment Ministers at the British-Irish Council in Jersey only a few weeks ago, where we discussed the marine Bill and our determination to ensure a consistent approach. A group has been set up to discuss and share best practice examples of individual approaches to marine and coastal management. Ireland also welcomed the close co-operation that exists through the British-Irish Council subgroup. The Ministers of the council are updated on the progress of individual countries’ marine and coastal strategies. In a sense, we go back to the issue that we discussed for many hours on how the Bill will relate to the different Administrations within the UK. Just as I have been reassured by the discussions between the devolved Administrations that there is a determination to make this work as well as possible in the context of the devolution settlement, I am also satisfied from the discussions that I have taken part in that, as far as the Crown dependencies are concerned, there is also a mutual understanding and determination to make this work effectively. On the issue of consultation raised by Amendment 126D, the advice that the Government have received is that it would be inappropriate to include wording of this nature in such a provision, as it would, to our knowledge, be unprecedented and would set a bad precedent for future legislation. We believe that it would be inappropriate for Her Majesty’s powers to be fettered in this way, although of course it is, where possible, our policy and practice to consult the Crown dependencies and overseas territories before legislating for them. The Bill contains a standard clause that reflects the constitutional relationship that is accepted by the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories. In conclusion, I know that the noble Lord has concerns, but the Government’s view is that the arrangements by and large work well and that it is better to work through consensus and consultation, which also seem to work well. Nothing detracts from the UK’s treaty responsibilities. I know that the noble Lord has an energetic campaign going on this issue, but overall I believe that the Bill is consistent with the known and understood relationship between the UK, the Crown dependencies and the British Overseas Territories. I am also satisfied that we will achieve an integrated approach, particularly in relation to the Crown dependencies, where such an approach to marine environment issues and fisheries regulation is so important.