City of Westminster Bill [HL]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. Many points have been raised that are of great interest. The Select Committee will certainly want to go into them very thoroughly. Pedlars were mentioned by all noble Lords, except the Minister, and even he might have mentioned them, but not in the same detail. The noble Lord, Lord Graham, is right that a licence is a licence to live. I thought that was a very important point. However, there is no thought of attempting to take away anyone’s livelihood. I slightly regret the loss of the hereditary system—I was disappointed when we lost the hereditary system here—but one has to appreciate that there is an equality issue, and it may be something that the council does not control and is obliged by other legislation to take away that right. If the Select Committee could come up with some way whereby the council could keep that as a continuing right, I would be only too pleased because I think it is a pity. As the noble Lord, Lord Graham, and other noble Lords said, markets are a very important part of the shopping scene. The scene is changing in markets. When I first came to London, I lived very close to Portobello Market and went every week for all my fruit and vegetables. If you go to Portobello Market now, you are lucky to find more than one or two fruit and vegetables stalls. The place has become an antique market. My local market in Bicester and other markets in London are becoming all clothes. That is a shame because we are all looking for the farmers’ markets that are starting up. They are a new thing, and perhaps they are replacing the food. Food purchases have always been a big thing in markets and are very important. My noble friend Lord Lucas queried the need for councils to control what is sold in markets. There is a need, partly because of the point I have just made, but also because powers to control what is sold by market traders exist. There is nothing new in the Bill about that. My noble friend Lord Lucas always makes interesting points on Private Bills as on most things. I liked what he said about liking London messy and rumbustious, but a lot of other people do not want it to be too messy. A lot of foreign tourists say to me that London is dirty. That is a great shame. We need a certain degree of control. I raised the issue of chestnut vendors with the people writing the Bill because, over the years, it has always been a great thing that in London you had the smell of the roasting chestnuts in season. I am told that there is no likelihood of that vanishing, so I was pleased by that. My noble friend Lord Lucas seemed to think that the council wants to move to covered markets. Covered markets are totally different from street markets. There is no suggestion whatever of that happening. Westminster Council values its street markets; it does not have many of them, but it values them, and people who live near them and even people who live some distance away and still make a point of visiting them value them. There is no suggestion of moving people out of ordinary markets. Someone mentioned changing people's pitches. That might be a positive rather than a negative thing, because, on days when not all stalls are there, a market can become very spread out. Under the flexibility in the Bill, the council could arrange that on days when only half the stalls are there, they bunch up together. That is easier and provides more atmosphere. If you have to walk a long way, you are not likely to walk to the isolated stall in the distance because there is no one in between. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned other boroughs. It is true that London is changing and that things are spreading out, but the Bill might prove such a success that other boroughs may propose similar Bills. It may be proved that there is a need for a variety, but we must wait to see how it works. The point that I keep making is that very little in the Bill is a change from the 1999 Act, so most of it is in operation now and has been shown to work well. Consultation must and will continue. I must comment on pedlars, because they have been mentioned by almost everyone. One problem is that to get a pedlar’s licence, all you have to do is go to your local constabulary and pay just under £13. That is widely different in cost from a street trader’s licence. Many pedlars then attempt to operate as street traders, which is quite unfair to street traders. They are different categories. The Pedlars Act goes back a great way in history, but the problem in Westminster has been that there has been no enforcement to differentiate and stop the illegal street traders who claim to be pedlars. The typical question is: how long do you have to be in a location before you are classified as a trader? The answer is that if you are there for up to 20 minutes, you are still a pedlar, but if you stay there after 20 minutes, you are a trader. Should enforcement officers have to stand and watch someone for 20 minutes and then move him on? The Bill makes no change whatever to the position of pedlars, but enforcement might be more possible. There are many other points to be considered. Let me check whether there is anything desperately important that I have not commented on. I must comment on the remarks of my noble friend Lord De Mauley. The lawful activities of traders will be protected. That is the aim of the Bill. First, that is nothing to do with pedlars; secondly, the other Bills that he mentioned can be clearly distinguished from this one. A point that no one has mentioned is that the Bill would allow the council to determine how many tables and chairs can be set out on the footpath. I remember a time when that was not allowed in London at all. I think that it adds greatly to the street scene that people can. At the moment, you can have permission to put tables and chairs out there for only six months. Under the Bill, you could have that permission for up to three years before you have to apply to renew it. It would be much easier for people running those restaurants to know that they have that degree of continuity. So there are good things in the Bill. It is a detailed Bill; there is an awful lot in it. I could go on and on, but I will not, because I know that everyone wants to be getting home. I thank everyone who has taken part today. Every word said today will, I am sure, be carefully considered by the Select Committee, and I ask noble Lords to give the Bill a Second Reading. Bill read a second time and committed to a Select Committee. On Thursday 12 March, Lord Haworth should have been recorded as voting Not-Content in Division 1, in place of Lord Howarth of Newport. On Thursday 5 March, Lord Parekh should have been recorded as voting Not-Content in Division 1, in place of Lord Pannick.