House of Lords Bill [HL]

My Lords, I know how to win over an audience, do not worry. The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, often glowers at me when she says, "I know that some of you do not like the Cross-Benchers". I do—I love them. But a little statistic may interest the House. Creations since 2005 include 12 Liberal Democrats, 17 Conservatives, 32 Labour, including 10 who have transferred straight to the Front Bench, and 41 Cross-Benchers. When the Cook-Maclennan committee, which has been referred to and which I served on, was considering the matter before the 1997 election, we were considering a House of Lords of about 450 in size with 20 per cent Cross-Benchers. That makes 90 Cross-Benchers. There are now more than 200; they are the second largest group in the House. I remember no discussion or debate that suggested that the House should be changed so fundamentally in that way. I very much admire the Cross-Benchers but like my former workmate, the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, I think that the party-political Benches in this House do the work revising and advising on legislation in a way that the Cross Benches do not. We must face the fact that to make this place function properly, all the political Front Benches must be able to be refreshed with people who will take up that difficult and time-consuming task. I briefly turn to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford, who I thought was wandering out onto very thin ice when he talked about manifestoes. I challenge some of my former comrades in the House of Commons. The House of Commons must have supremacy on this. When we go through Lords reform, it would be unthinkable that this House should have a veto on it. It is right that all three parties should clarify and include specifically in their next manifestoes their views on Lords reform. If they happened to coincide, so much the better, and I do not see the danger to democracy that the right reverend Prelate speaks of. Other than that, my only forward look is one of eager anticipation to see how, as my noble friend Lord Tyler pointed out, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, performs his usual escapology. I also look forward to the Minister’s reply. Lords reform—constitutional reform—is difficult. Evolutionary consensus is possibly the best way. However, I point out that constitutional reform sometimes comes through struggle and decisive action. If we had waited for consensus in 1832, a Member for Old Sarum would probably still be sitting in the House of Commons. If we had allowed the Lords to dictate on the Budget in 1910, instead of threatening to create 600 Peers, the Lords would still have an unacceptable control over government expenditure. Sometimes Governments have to be brave. I understand the problems of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, today, but I say to him only that there is a famous precedent. Robert Peel, when listening to the debate on the corn laws, turned to a colleague halfway through the debate and said, "You must answer them, for I cannot". I wonder what he would do if he was to go back to then. There are direct parallels in our careers. In our youth, Jack Straw was one of the most radical of student leaders. He is now fast becoming the most conservative of constitutional reformers. The Minister has a duty, having listened to this House, to go back to Mr Straw and say, "You must answer them, for I cannot".