Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL]

My Lords, like the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, let me say that this has been a very good debate. The many matters that have been raised will ensure that the Committee stage is lively, interesting and no doubt informative. Noble Lords welcomed the Bill in general but went on to find aspects they asked questions about or disagreed with; that is entirely fair and consistent with the scrutiny of legislation in your Lordships' House. However, I think that ultimately there is consensus about the importance of the Bill as a whole and about its importance in protecting the marine environment and allowing its rich resources to be used effectively and to the great benefit of the people of this country. My noble friend Lord Davies of Coity put it very well indeed. The noble Lords, Lord Taylor and Lord Geddes, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and other noble Lords were critical of what is now described as a framework Bill. It is a very long Bill to be thus described, although I readily accept that there is much to be done to fill in some of the questions about the guidance and orders that will follow it. There are two ways of looking at this: I consider that it has the necessary flexibility to allow for changing circumstances and to gain experience. The first point that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made was that it had taken a long time for the Bill to come before Parliament. The time that it has taken has allowed it to become even better ordered than it would have been, but marine Bills do not come before Parliament very often. That is one reason why one is justified in having certain flexibility in a framework Bill to allow the legislation some flexibility for future development. The orders that will come from the Bill will themselves be subject to scrutiny. I have no doubt that the amendments that we will discuss in Committee and on Report will tease out some matters about which noble Lords want to be informed. I join other noble Lords in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, not only for his excellent contribution to our debate but for the work of the Joint Committee and its members. I noted his comments on the short time allowed. All I can say is that the quality of the committee’s work has not been dimmed because of the shortness of the time in which it had to operate. I am extremely grateful to him and to the members of the committee for their work. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, referred to something I am completely unaware of—a departmental turf war in Whitehall. I have the great honour to be a Minister in both the Department of Energy and Climate Change and in Defra, and, although the Bill is sponsored by Defra, the matters that it covers concern the Government as a whole. Of course, there will be some trade-off and tension, but we think that this model will enable us to get the correct balance, which is very important. We heard from my noble friend Lord Whitty and the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, about one of the Government’s aims in relation to climate change—increasing the use of renewables—in which marine, wave and offshore wind have a part to play. That must be right; we have a very challenging target. Equally, we want to do that in a way that will not damage the environment. The establishment of the Marine Management Organisation and the relationship that it has with the IPC and national policy statements gives us the best way to deal with that essential balance. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who is not in his place, talked about many of the pressures that one faces with the marine environment. He was absolutely right to do so. I come to the Marine Management Organisation. My noble friend Lord Hunt set this debate the tremendous challenge of competing with the debate that led to the establishment of the Met Office. Whether or not the MMO will achieve the status and excellence of the Met, our debates will surely lay a good foundation. We can only hope. I know that there is great interest in the role and objectives of the MMO. I have no doubt that, on our first day in Committee, we will devote considerable time to discussing that. What is its role? Is it a champion of the seas, as some noble Lords asked? We see the Marine Management Organisation as the Government’s strategic delivery body in the marine area, required to have regard to all aspects of sustainable development in carrying out its responsibilities. Of course, the Government must set the strategy, but within that the MMO itself will have a hugely important role to play in informing the strategy and in the responsibilities that are laid down in the Bill. I know that the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, and others pressed the Government to define ““sustainable development”” in the Bill. Noble Lords who have taken part in debating other Bills that have recently been through your Lordships’ House will know that the Government are rather resistant to doing so. This is not because sustainable development is not important. What we understand by sustainable development is a dynamic concept. One of the risks of putting too tight a definition in the Bill is that we may exclude many important matters. I should not pray the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, in aid, because he is not here, but he made a telling point about the need for a degree of flexibility. I have no doubt that we will discuss the status and staffing of the MMO in Committee. On staffing and terms and conditions, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, that no decisions have yet been reached, but she will understand that those are challenging issues. They are being faced by my department and the new Department of Energy and Climate Change. This always occurs when structural change takes place. On the question of status, I will not be drawn by my noble friend on the grading of the director of this organisation, but I understand his point about the need for seniority and status. I also understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, about the calibre and expertise of the people whom we wish to be board members. The noble Lord mentioned scientific expertise; a dose of common sense would also not go amiss. Clearly, we want the highest calibre of people around the board table, whether they are executives or non-executives. I say to my noble friend Lord Hunt that data are absolutely vital. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and other noble Lords asked about the relationship between the Marine Management Organisation and other bodies. I will come shortly to the Infrastructure Planning Commission. I recognise that, probably, of all the relationships, that is of most interest to many noble Lords. The noble Baroness is right: the MMO will have to deal with other delivery bodies and regulators to reduce the risk of overlapping functions or gaps in regulatory control. We are working on that to clarify roles and responsibilities. We intend to issue memoranda of understanding to ensure that the regulatory framework works effectively. This is not an untypical approach; memoranda of understanding work in other sectors. I have no reason to think that they will not work in this sector as well. As for the Infrastructure Planning Commission—many of us debated this during proceedings on the Energy Bill—the Marine and Coastal Access Bill and the Planning Act 2008 have been developed in parallel. We expect and intend that the roles of the Marine Management Organisation and the Infrastructure Planning Commission will be complementary. The MMO will license most projects and developments in English territorial and UK offshore waters. The Infrastructure Planning Commission will consider applications for ““nationally significant”” infrastructure projects, which means in the marine area the largest ports and renewable energy installations that will generate more than 100 megawatts of power. When the Infrastructure Planning Commission is the consenting authority, the Marine Management Organisation will lend its expertise to the Infrastructure Planning Commission and will act in a close advisory role on the marine aspects of each project. After, and if, consent has been given, the Marine Management Organisation will monitor and enforce consent conditions. As noble Lords will know, and as I said in my opening remarks, we have instituted a requirement on policy authorities to review periodically the marine policy statement. We have made the marine policy statement subject to a similar parliamentary process as the national policy statement, and marine planning organisations are under an obligation to do what they can to ensure compatibility. Clearly, we have to ensure that there is consistency between the two statements. It would be nonsense, illogical and impossible for people working or wishing to invest, or concerned about the environment in this marine area, if there were not consistency. Marine plans are another important area. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that decisions on marine plans have to be taken in accordance with marine policy documents unless relevant considerations apply. Essentially that means that there is a long established concept drawn for terrestrial planning that allows for new scientific data and knowledge, specific local characteristics or a new or unforeseen circumstance not envisaged when plans or the policy statement is drawn up to be considered. I can reassure the noble Baroness that we would not expect diversion from an MPS or a plan to be undertaken lightly. Decision-makers, for example, would be required to set out reasons for departing from a plan. Obviously, we will be issuing guidance to decision-makers on that very important matter. On the question of marine heritage and archaeology, I thought the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, made a very important point. I very much look forward to debating that with her in Committee. We have had a very interesting discussion about the fishing industry. I will perhaps come on to one or two points later. We hope that the impact of marine planning will offer the fishing industry, as well as other marine users, the chance to have their say about how the seas should be managed. We hope that planning will bring efficiencies for the port industry by allowing stakeholders from all sectors and government departments to come together and ensure that at the earliest possible stage a discussion on port activities and developments is considered alongside other planned developments. It should be the same for the renewables industry. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Cavendish, and my noble friend Lord Whitty made some very telling points about the tragedy of the cockle fishers, the fact that we continually need to learn from that, and the hope and expectation that the legislation being brought forward today will enable us to do so. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, was concerned about shipping. We recognise that the points he raised are very important and we will ensure that issues around shipping will be fully reflected in the marine policy statement and marine plans. We do not anticipate the establishment of a network of marine conservation zones as having any significant impact on shipping lanes. The noble Lord, Lord Burnett, asked me about changing plans during the planned period. I refer him to Clause 50, which says that marine plans may be amended at any time using the same process as originally used to prepare the plan. As I have said, decision-makers also have the flexibility to depart from the provisions in the marine plans if relevant considerations apply. On the question of nature conservation and the criteria for the designation of marine conservation zones, the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Hamwee, made some very important points. Let me come to the issue of social and economic consequences. The reason it is highlighted in the Bill—and draft guidance made available this summer is being updated on that matter with a view to publication in the new year—is that taking account of socio-economic issues will ensure that we minimise the impact on social and economic opportunities in the marine environment while meeting our conservation priorities. I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, put it well when she talked about changing societal views and the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, spoke of the balancing act to be made. I do not think it should excite deep concern in noble Lords that those factors are mentioned in the legislation. It is a perfectly legitimate matter to be considered as part of these arrangements. As for the conservation objectives set for marine conservation zones, I can let the noble Baroness, Lady Young, know that the objectives will be set in the designation orders for the zones. The designating authorities will have the power to assign those zones and they must exercise that power to contribute to the achievement of an ecologically coherent network across the UK. Designating authorities will report on progress towards achieving a network in 2012 and every six years afterwards. I recognise that we will have an interesting debate when we come to enforcement. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that the general offence of deliberate damage to marine conservation zones is intended to capture acts of vandalism that would not be caught by other enforcement provisions. Reckless damage or disturbance would be captured through the creation and enforcement of targeted by-laws. We think that will provide greater clarity for all sea-users. Coming back to 2012—I recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, raised that issue—we are well aware of our commitment through the World Summit on Sustainable Development and the Convention on Biological Diversity to contribute to a global system of marine protected area networks by 2012. We think that the duty of the Secretary of State to report by then on progress towards that is entirely consistent with that requirement. Clearly, noble Lords are concerned about the depletion of fisheries and the need for conservation. The noble Lord, Lord Moran, and the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, among other noble Lords, raised such questions. I know that some groups have requested that the marine conservation zone mechanism should be used as a fisheries management tool and as a way of creating large no-take zones in order to promote the recovery of fish stocks. I understand that we will be discussing that more fully, but our intention is to designate marine conservation zones for conservation purposes and not for fisheries management. We think that the level of protection for a marine conservation zone will depend on the site-specific conservation objective. There should be no presumption that designation of a marine conservation zone will result in closure to fisheries.