National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare and Other Fields) Order 2008

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I hope that I have identified the key issues and that I will be able to respond to them. I had anticipated there would be some considerable debate about the policy areas of the proposal but we have been concerned rather more with process and how the devolution settlement is working. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, combined two concepts, which then became the subject of fairly intensive debate by the Committee. He said, first, that the order might have been handled differently and better; and, secondly, he raised issues, which the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, also developed, about what the order meant in relationship to powers. That brought forth from my noble friends two definitions: first, their concept of devolution and how it should evolve; and, secondly, whether the order fitted within that framework. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, was supported by his noble friend, as I would expect, but they are both pushing at an open door when they say that it would have been better if this order had been considered at the same time by the relevant committee. That is what we intend to do in future. It is unfortunate when decisions appear to have a pre-emptive quality imposed on them by whoever is first into the field. I emphasise that I agree with the representations of noble Lords that that would have been a better way of doing this. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said that the process might benefit from joint consultation and he went on to develop the point. But the Welsh Affairs Committee makes its own rules; the Government do not dictate to the committee its rules or procedures. We have learnt from this exercise that we would do better in the future to make sure that the process is carried on, if not through joint consultation, then at exactly the same time, and that there is no pre-emptive quality to it. On the more general issue, I agree with my noble friends that the whole concept of the Government of Wales Act was to introduce a dynamic and a process of devolution. The Government of Wales Act set up a broad framework within which the National Assembly may seek to put forward orders extending its powers and seek the agreement of this Parliament to that position. That is exactly what this order does. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, refining the position of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, indicated that there may be constructive ways in which the process could be developed further. The whole point of an order is to explain its scope and content; it does not set out to explain where it fits in with the constitution of the Government of Wales Act and the process of devolutionary development. If it did, every order that came before us would be—to put it mildly—extensive and we would have debates that went beyond the order’s framework and covered the whole process of devolution. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that the order has been carefully devised and is confined to the powers being sought, which is its proper role. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, indicated that he wanted reassurance on certain aspects of the order. I reassure him fully that we intend to protect the position on whistleblowing. He asked whether future orders could be narrowly focused. That depends on what one means by ““narrow””.