National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare and Other Fields) Order 2008

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for his clear explanation. I seem fairly regularly to be sitting opposite him; first it was on sport, then on gold, and now, of all things, on Wales, and children in particular, which is one of the most important issues in the order. In principle, my party and I support the order, so we are not at loggerheads or fighting about it in any one way. The Explanatory Memorandum comprehensively sets out the policy background to the proposed order and includes the worrying statistic that some 28 per cent of children in Wales live in poverty, in households with incomes below the 60 per cent median. I say to the Bill team that I found the notes for the order comprehensive. They put me into the picture pretty quickly, which is a significant advance on notes to previous legislation associated with Wales. As I think everybody knows, there are 13 different ways of legislating for Wales. It has been complicated, but if the notes are an example of the way we are to go, it is clear that it is getting simpler. I draw the Government’s attention to the report of the Welsh Select Committee—HC 576, published on 26 June 2008—and its conclusions and recommendations. I shall not read them all out, but paragraph 1 states: "““We do not believe that the process for the scrutiny of this proposed Order has been satisfactory””." I know that my noble friend Lord Roberts will expand on that. Paragraph 8 states: "““We note with concern the Deputy Children’s Commissioner’s evidence that the split in responsibilities between England and Wales for safeguarding and promoting the well-being of children and young people has resulted in vulnerable children not receiving the services they need””." The report makes quite clear what she found and quotes what she said. I would like an undertaking from the Minister that the Government have taken it on board and are moving to remove the gap into which those poor young people are liable to fall. A number of other matters arise from the report on which I would appreciate the Minister’s observations. First, although the evidence of the deputy commissioner to the Select Committee contended that there were legislative constraints on the Welsh Assembly Government’s ability to legislate in the proposed area, as a consequence of which enhanced legislation and competence were sought, those constraints were not made overwhelmingly clear. We still wonder what they actually are. A reference was made by the witnesses to the need for a Wales approach, but that in itself did not take things much further. What I am saying now is similar to what would have been heard by those listening in the House of Commons, because my honourable friend David Jones was there. He was ill this morning, so I have not had time to put my head together with his, but I have some of his script so that we are on the same line. The Select Committee recommended that in future it would be helpful if, when existing legislative constraint is cited as a reason for applying for an order, a comprehensive explanation of that constraint were included in the Explanatory Memorandum. Can the Minister confirm that the Wales Office accepts the recommendation of the Select Committee and that, in future, explanation of legislative constraints will be given in Explanatory Memoranda? Furthermore can he confirm that, in future, orders addressing a specific subject will be narrowly focused and his department will resist the temptation to widen the brief and go off into the countryside? Perhaps most importantly, the Select Committee noted with concern the evidence received from the Deputy Children’s Commissioner for Wales, which I have already mentioned, and the split in responsibilities between England and Wales for safeguarding and promoting the well-being of children and young people. Interestingly, the evidence from the deputy commissioner was extremely disturbing; she noted the gap that I have already mentioned and went on to say: "““To sit here and say it objectively is one thing, but when you are meeting these children and seeing the impact on them, you would not believe that these things are happening in the UK and there is not an organisation there which is able or empowered to properly champion their rights””." I hope the Minister and the rest of the Government will quickly find a way in which to put that right. Most worryingly, perhaps, is that the deputy commissioner believes that in the aftermath of the LCO, after this order is passed, the cross-border problems could actually increase. Can the Minister assure me that that will not happen—and I do not mean may not happen, but will not happen—because of government action? Will he indicate whether the Government are already taking steps to put in place an overarching framework that will cover those things mentioned by the deputy commissioner in her evidence? Finally, there was a recommendation from the Select Committee that the proposed order be amended to make it clear that nothing in it would weaken the Children’s Commissioner’s existing powers in relation to whistleblowing, which the commissioner described as one of his essential safeguards. The Minister gave that undertaking in his opening remarks, but it would be nice to hear it substantiated. Notwithstanding that recommendation, no provision appears to have been inserted into the draft order before us, so I welcome the Minister’s explanation for why nothing in the order substantiates the powers of the Children’s Commissioner. I have pointed out some of those very important areas that still need work done by the Government. I hope that noble Lords and the Government will agree with most of what I have said, because I do not believe it to be contentious. I believe it to be caring and of interest to the families of children and others in Wales.