Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords]

I hear what my hon. Friend says, but we have to deal with what we are faced with today. The amendments are carefully phrased. We are looking at mitochondrial opportunities to deal with diseases that someone might carry, but the amendments would make it absolutely clear that that should not be done through human genetic modification. There is a dividing line, but I hope that the Government are clearly on my side, and that of other hon. Members. I have written to my right hon. Friend the Minister on the subject; unfortunately, I have not had a reply. I refer to the letter sent by my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and Royton (Mr. Meacher), my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Leicestershire (David Taylor) and me. We wrote to the Government in the hope that the point would be clarified before Report, given that in Committee I tried to draw attention to what some of us saw as a particular problem. To refresh everyone's memory, we are talking about proposed new section 3ZA to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990, which, to many of us, is the key part of the Bill before us. It goes to the essence of what human fertilisation and embryology is all about. Those of us who wish to shut down genetic modification will draw attention to any loophole that will result from the Bill becoming law. As I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Dr. Gibson), I have no problem with the Government's aim of helping people with mitochondrial conditions. The problem is that proposed new section 3ZA(5) is so broadly worded that it would allow a future Government to permit absolutely any technique—including genetic modification or even reproductive cloning—to prevent transmission of mitochondrial conditions. We want the Government to respond to that issue. We feel that the Government have to clarify their position, because although there is an opportunity for Parliament to scrutinise in respect of permitting any technique that requires the passing of regulations, that is not the same as primary legislation. Views will change, and as has just been said, matters may pass on. As the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh) said, unless the legislation is clear from the outset, there will be the slippery slope about which some of us are very concerned. The Minister cannot have it both ways. If the Government are coming down against the genetic modification of children, that needs to be stated in the Bill and we should not need to go to secondary legislation. If that does not happen, the Government will effectively be supporting a loophole that would permit such modification to happen in due course. There is an argument that my amendment might interfere with the techniques for mitochondrial donation. However, according to people far more scientifically knowledgeable about these issues than I, there are other ways in which such donations can be made. From my philosophical point of view, those are very preferable to genetic modification. I agree with the hon. Member for Southport. We have had a listening Government and open-minded discussions. What happened before is different, but to me that is a slightly different issue. I hope that the Government will respond. The problem is that if we do not get things right with amendment No. 41 at this stage, that will be the law, even if there is a subsequent attempt to provide more control through the regulatory process. Some of us are nervous about that, because attitudes change and 90 minutes—at best—is not a good length of time in which to discuss such huge philosophical issues. Amendment No. 73 clearly links to amendment No. 41, and through it we are asking why the Government, if they wanted to will the end—not allowing genetic modification in respect of the creation of children—were not prepared to rule out the means. As it is currently constituted, the Bill will allow scientists to continue to experiment in this area. That is problematic for two reasons. First, this country is an outrider on this issue in the world, and certainly Europe. Many European countries have ruled out the process. I am quizzical about why, in saying that they want a degree of restrictiveness in this area, the Government have not signed the relevant convention. That has been discussed in Committee and on Second Reading. Even if we want to be at the front end of scientific progress, why are we out on our own? Some of us do not want to go to certain places. If our view is that we wish to make genetic modification in respect of the creation of children illegal, shutting down scientific research on the issue would seem perfectly reasonable. If it is not shut down, scientists in this country or elsewhere will work on the issue. If we believe that science will eventually find answers, such scientists—whether mavericks or the most genuine members of the scientific community—will push through that door. We will then be faced with the dilemma of what to do with that research—sorry about the pun, but the genie will really be out of the bottle. I have explained why amendment No. 73 is vital. It would not interfere with the basic research, because other forms of research dealing with all manner of genetic imperfections would be allowed to carry on. The problem is that unless we are clear that we are not encouraging research through genetic modification, somebody somewhere, if the legislation retains its current wording, will go on with it. I hope that the Minister will give a good response and that the House, if asked to vote, will come clearly down against genetic modification, which I am sure everyone in the House is against. The argument is about how best to be against it. If amendment No. 49, tabled by the hon. Member for Southport, is pushed to a Division, I will support it. However, I hope that my more comprehensive amendment is taken seriously and seen as a way of helping the Government, who, I am sad to say, have listened but not acted as some of us would have wished. They have not been comprehensive in clarifying their views on human genetic modification.