Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I wholeheartedly thank the Minister for taking the time to meet us à propos the amendments. We said then that we welcomed the change of position. I would never apply laddish terminology such as ““cave-in”” to any morsels that the Minister might throw in my direction. Such an expression does not figure in my lexicon. I consider the Minister’s rethinking of his position an extremely gracious act. However, while not wishing to be at all churlish, I take this opportunity to remind him of my now recalibrated concerns in one or two small areas, one of which is the treatment of 16 and 17 year-olds. Current arrangements for young people regarded as representing a risk to others are already stringent, and there seems to be no evidence that they are ineffective. In the following points, I refer to an extensive briefing that I have received from the Standing Committee on Youth Justice. Youth offending teams are required to conduct an assessment of risk of serious harm in all cases where there is any suggestion that a young person might pose a risk to others. They are obliged to develop a risk management plan. Where levels of risk are at their highest, young people are subject to multi-agency public protection arrangements. Such arrangements provide a much higher level of supervision and oversight than would be afforded by the young person notifying his or her details to the police annually. For these very reasons, the Government were persuaded that violent offender orders, included in the Criminal Justice Bill not so very long ago, should not be introduced for those below the age of 18. I know that the Minister is sympathetic to the argument that adolescence is a time of transition and identity formulation. During the minimum proposed period for notification, each young person will have changed beyond all recognition, and the risk that they may have posed 10 years previously may no longer be relevant. A further concern is that terrorism-related activity differs from other forms of offending in a number of respects. Where young people are involved, it will in nearly every case be encouraged by, or undertaken under the influence or at the instigation of, older individuals—we have talked about the grooming that takes place—who may deliberately target children. In such cases, it is important that responses to terrorist offending should aim to foster social inclusion through a process of education and rehabilitation. The notification requirements are likely to be unhelpful in this regard. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the Prime Minister’s visit to Saudi Arabia earlier this week, where he met some alleged suspects—I have to say ““alleged””, because Saudi Arabia has not taken any terrorist suspects to trial as yet. They had been the subject of rehabilitation and seemed to have seen that they were under the influence of a pervasive ideology and to have recanted. While not suggesting for a second that we employ those tactics, we would hope that we could look forward to their education and rehabilitation, particularly with regard to this young group, rather than stigmatisation through notification requirements ad infinitum. Will the Minister, who I know is mindful of these points, accept that we might wish to keep an eye on this area, and, as we go forward and see how it beds down, perhaps in some forthcoming legislation revisit these concerns?