Counter-Terrorism Bill

moved Amendment No. 128: 128: Clause 83, page 60, line 21, at end insert ““, and (c) intends that the information should be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism.”” The noble Baroness said: I have a great deal of sympathy with the Government’s position in bringing forth these amendments, and I can see that they are needed in the light of recent actions against members of the armed services. However, there are two problems with Clause 83. The first is that a person commits an offence who elicits, or attempts to elicit, information about an individual who is or has been a member of the Armed Forces. It says that the eliciting of this information must be, "““likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism””." That is far too widely drawn. It is a catch-all phrase. In several circumstances that one can think of, a person may wish to elicit some information and might do so quite innocently through conversation through a social contact, and would not necessarily know that doing so was ““likely to be useful””. New Section 58A(1)(b) of the 2000 Act also makes it an offence to publish or communicate any such information. Again, we believe that this provision is extremely widely drafted. Although subsection (2) of the new section allows for a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that that they had a reasonable excuse for their action, we find it to be the other way round. If you innocently commit an offence of which you are not aware, once you are charged, it can be a defence that you were not doing it for the purpose of terrorism. On the third day of our proceedings, we talked extensively about young people’s culpability in involvement in terrorism. The Minister had some sympathy with the idea that there is manipulation of young people and that they are often drawn in, as we have seen in recent terrorism trials, by those who are older and more experienced. If we left Clause 83 as widely drafted as it is, we would be catching people we did not wish to catch. They would be able to use the defence available, but it would in any effect have a hugely disruptive and grave effect on their lives. We seek through our amendment simply to insert a provision to clarify that it would be necessary to show clear intent that the information procured or communicated would be useful to someone committing or preparing an act of terrorism. On that basis, we hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to clarifying the law in this area. I beg to move.