Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, this has been an astounding debate, because many views expressed across the House have not complied with what you would call normal party politics. It has been astounding also because it has concentrated almost entirely on the 42-day extension, although there are other matters in the Bill. My noble friend Lady Neville-Jones clearly set out the line that we have adopted on the issues of 42 days and intercept evidence. I shall concentrate on the Bill’s remaining issues. Before I do so, I say that the Minister faces an unpalatable truth. Two-thirds of the House today have not accepted 42 days and huge concerns will be made evident in Committee not just on the implications of 42 days but on the processes that would set up 42 days. Many noble Lords have expressed concern about the interweaving of the state, the judiciary and the politicians. This must be unpicked very carefully in Committee. We have heard many remarkable speeches this afternoon. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, referred to some of them. I thank those on my Benches for their contributions, all of which were extremely apposite. My noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew, with all his experience in dealing with terrorism, made apposite warnings about the implications of 42 days. My noble friend Lord Sheikh, along with the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, rather tentatively drew our attention to the care that we should take to remember that the Muslim community is very stable, sure and supportive of living in our community, but that a small element is causing—or can be led to cause—trouble. They were both careful, good speeches. My noble friend Lord Cope of Berkeley referred to the Bill as offensive to our fundamental liberties. It is on that basis that we have discussed it—the balancing of liberties and freedoms against our enormous concerns about terrorism and preventing terrorist attacks. We have all listened to the Government, but I am afraid that their approach to counterterrorism still appears to be reactive rather than proactive. In their response to terrorism, they keep on trying to take more judicial powers, impose more restrictions on the general public and seek greater intrusion by the state as a legal normality. As my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones made clear, we do not believe in doing the terrorists’ work for them. As she said, we want strong security, the preservation of liberties and efficient justice. No one here has denied—as no one here would deny, and certainly I do not—the dangers of the terrorist threats to this country. How could anyone do so in the face of the reality that we have seen? However, although we agree with some of the provisions in the Bill, there are others, in addition to the question of pre-charge detention, about which we have concerns. My noble friend made the case eloquently for the need to protect our great traditions and—a point echoed across the Chamber today—our democratic rights and freedoms. To those I would add the need for an independent judiciary in which the public can have confidence. In particular, it should come as no surprise that we, too, will be looking closely at Part 6, which is on inquests. The provisions under this part would allow the Secretary of State to appoint a chosen coroner, to select a special coroner and to decide whether an inquest should be held without a jury. It was only after the most heated debate in the other place that a role for the judiciary and the Lord Chief Justice in approving special coroners was proposed, but that still does not answer the known concerns—that coroners’ inquests with specially appointed coroners and no juries will not inspire any confidence among the public and that they are largely counter to the normal open legal proceedings that we understand as proper in this country. In the other place, my honourable friend Dominic Grieve said of the Government: "““I can see that they have a real problem, but the answer that they have come up with is profoundly … wrong””.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/6/08; col. 249.]" These provisions, or some of them, were intended to be in the long-lost coroners Bill. That Bill has been promised for years but has not yet been delivered. However, only these provisions are being considered outside the wider coroners’ courts reforms. These few clauses give the Government enormous powers with almost no safeguards. The noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, offered the Government incisive reasons why Part 6 is not acceptable. It is essential that untoward deaths should all be properly investigated, particularly where there are issues of sensitivity surrounding possible state intervention, and that there should be openness throughout all the processes. We appreciate that the Government made some small moves in the other place but we do not believe that these provisions are anything like adequate. My noble friend Lord Kingsland will therefore table amendments in Committee to try to resolve these problems. Many other provisions in the Bill—even those for which we have some sympathy—have the potential to reduce confidence in our judicial system further. The new powers to collect information and DNA in Part 1, along with the notification requirements in Part 4, seem innocuous enough when looked at in isolation, especially with the Government’s promise to use the powers only in the most extreme cases, but they represent yet another step towards the criminalisation of the innocent. We shall be looking with the utmost care at the safeguards and limitations on these provisions. Similarly, the impact of new provisions on asset freezing and the rules of court, and the changes to the jurisdiction of terrorist offences, will need to be scrutinised carefully. Provisions such as these have a nasty habit of developing unintended consequences after implementation. Therefore, rather than relying on future legislation to undo bad law, we prefer to get it right the first time. Much of this legislation has been justified by the Government on the grounds that it is to be used only in the most exceptional cases. However, the concept that we have one justice system for terrorist offences and one for all others causes considerable disquiet. As the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, said, the view of the Joint Committee on Human Rights is that this is not an acceptable situation. It is also rarely true in practice. There has been much discussion in the media recently on the excessive use of draconian powers—justified in Parliament as targeting terrorism—to investigate minor crimes. The Government must be very careful that the precedents that they set for terrorism do not become absorbed into normal practice. This Government have given in to the temptation of seeking new powers in order to solve old problems far too often in the past. Before allowing these further provisions to be passed, we shall be exploring whether the enormous powers given in previous legislation have been inadequate or whether they have just been ineffectively implemented. During the passage of the Bill through another place, the debate over 42 days rather overshadowed much of the proceedings—as it has here—on Report. Although useful progress was made in Committee, many of the government concessions and promises on other aspects went unscrutinised at a later stage. We will therefore return to those issues and seek to clarify any remaining uncertainty over the new clauses that the Government have introduced. This Bill has already generated enormous concern on the 42-day issue alone, as I said. The Government’s obduracy in proceeding with this inchoate proposal in the face of well informed opposition is staggering. The depth of feeling has been well demonstrated again today. Of the 45 speakers, over two-thirds have concentrated on this aspect alone and I have no doubt that, when we come to Part 2 in Committee, that opposition will manifest itself again. However, this House must not believe that the other provisions do not require the most detailed scrutiny. They do and we will make sure that they receive it. It has been a long day of debate. The Government are clearly in no rush to see this Bill on the statute book, as they have timed its arrival here to coincide with the long Recess. However, on our return in October, we will have much detailed work to do and we look forward to that.