Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, equated the situation that we now face with that in Northern Ireland. That is incorrect, as I hope to show. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, unlike others, put the issue fairly. He said that the issue of 28 days or 42 days is a matter of judgment. I disagree with noble Lords who argue that it is a question of sincerity. It is not. There is sincerity on both sides of the argument that we are now confronting. Arguing, as I do, for 42 days, I think that strong and workable safeguards have to be implemented. I do not think that they have been cobbled together or are irrelevant, as has been alleged. My noble friend Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate, a police officer of great experience, listed the difficulties confronting prosecutors, and I entirely agree. So, am I completely satisfied with the Government’s proposals? I certainly am not. In my view, it is necessary to pose the following questions. Do the risks which we now confront justify the extension to 42 days? Are the safeguards adequate? Is a fair trial possible? What, above all, is the alternative? At the outset, I am concerned about civil liberties, with which I have been involved throughout my life as a politician and as a lawyer. They are precious to us. But the risk we now face from extremists is different in quality. It is unprecedented. Never have we been obliged to confront anything like this before, even in Northern Ireland. Never before have terrorists cared so little for their own lives or have they been prepared to make the sacrifices that these people are ready to contemplate. What are the safeguards? As I have said, they are of fundamental significance. The Home Secretary and the Government have listened carefully to the debates here and in another place. I believe that they have brokered a viable compromise. No one can rejoice in what is put before us as a solution. But, realistically, is there any other? In his opening speech, my noble friend Lord West spelt out vividly the safeguards that the Government have proposed in this Bill. We are told by many in positions of authority that 28 days may be insufficient in some cases and, as we have heard, that the maximum period of 28 days has been reached in some instances. What is put before us is not only fair but justified. If the proponents of no change are justified, having to legislate in haste is not a prescription for accuracy or efficiency. The need for a fair trial has been mentioned. It goes without saying that that is critical. Defence lawyers have to have faith in the sanctity of the legal process. But what evidence is being produced to argue that a fair trial is impossible? I do not believe that. On the alternative, how can people be so sure, so certain, that everything can be accomplished within 28 days when evidence has shown that we have already come close to violating that principle? The Civil Contingencies Act, which has been mentioned, is quite wrong. It is said, rightly, that our liberties were hard fought for. No one can dissent from that proposition, but, today, regrettably, minorities threaten those freedoms. Accordingly we cannot be optimistic and hope that nothing too terrible will occur. It has already happened in America and here in our own city. Alas, drastic action has to be contemplated, but workable safeguards are essential. That is what the Bill proposes. In conclusion, I will address the issue of our approach to the Muslim community. Ed Husain argued in the Evening Standard yesterday that we should have no truck with extremists. They do not speak the same language as moderate Muslims. They speak of destruction and ruination. They bring odium on all who seek a peaceful outcome to our problems worldwide. Husain is absolutely right to describe these elements as ““fascist””, the equivalent of the BNP. Unlike the former Mayor of London, we should not appease them. In no way will that abate the hunger for human sacrifices made by others, rarely by themselves. These people, as Husain writes, are, "““a threat to Islam and Muslims””." Their fanaticism, their terrorism and their calls for martyrdom inevitably result in the death of their fellow Muslims. I have certain other proposals to make regarding the Bill but I think I have said enough.