Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, we keep hearing the figure of 42 days for detention. I take your Lordships back 36 years, when I sat where the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, sit now. I shall sharpen your Lordships’ memories: that was the year of the Munich Olympics, when Israeli athletes were kidnapped and done to death. It is fresh in my mind that at that time, 36 years ago, we were discussing aspects of legislation in the United Kingdom—more precisely, Northern Ireland. We discussed a process similar to the 42-day proposal in this Bill that we are discussing today. I think that it was known as internment, or perhaps one calls it detention. Nevertheless, the principle is exactly the same: depriving people of their liberty pre-trial, before they are brought to justice or while making further inquiries. In another Olympic year, 1984, I was asked to serve in Northern Ireland. My noble and learned friend in front of me will know that I am a young Scot. I am not a lawyer; I am a chartered accountant. I was asked to carry out various duties in Northern Ireland. These ranged further than the duties that I had to deal with as, say, Minister for Agriculture, let alone in your Lordships’ House. Ministers in your Lordships’ House and Ministers in Northern Ireland have to get their knees brown or their toes wet with the matters that we are discussing in this Bill. I had always to remember to try to get it right. One would cover everything. I am not a lawyer, but I had to see that no mistakes at all were made. If a Minister—someone in my position of not being a lawyer—made mistakes, they could bring to absolutely nothing or to destruction all the hard work of the security forces and the police. We have heard tonight about the excellent work that they have done all over the United Kingdom. I hope that I began to learn there. I learned that Ministers perhaps have some knowledge of the aspects of security that we are discussing this evening. Noble Lords are lucky that most of my speech has been made by my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones. Her outstanding opening speech covered everything, and I look forward to her contributions in the stages of the Bill that will bring it to fruition. The other half of what I might have wanted to say was covered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, who is not in his place. He is another Member of your Lordships' House who covers security. He is the essential link man between everything we are discussing tonight to bring suspected terrorists to justice before the courts and, above all, to get all the evidence and the details right. The speech made by the noble and learned Lord was an example to us all. Virtually all the speeches have been made on the subject of 42 days’ pre-charge detention. I understand that there will be quite a lengthy wait before we come to the next stages of the Bill. I ask the Minister to be kind enough to take the warning, which is customary at Second Readings of Bills before your Lordships' House, that I will be particularly following some Scottish aspects of the Bill. I shall be guided by my noble and learned friend, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, and perhaps even the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. The particular clauses that I might want to look at are Clauses 11, 17, 18, 19, 35 and 41 and Clauses 89 and 90 when we come to the definition of cash. That will come another day, but today we have been discussing a crucial aspect of the Bill: the right to liberty of every person in the United Kingdom. Nothing must be done that will bring their reputation and liberty to a halt. We must get it right. I am sure that the Minister will remember that. That is enough from a Scottish accountant. I look forward to the next stages of the Bill.