Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I am privileged to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, even if he took from my speech the point about internment in Northern Ireland. That was clearly seen as providing recruits for terrorism and was regarded as a mistake. I am not saying that internment in Northern Ireland is identical to 42 days, but there are sufficiently disturbing similarities in their effect on innocent people who might be detained in this way. During this debate, I have been reflecting on the number of years during which we have debated detention without charge, long before terrorism loomed as large on the scene as it does now. When I was in the Commons, I was on the Standing Committee dealing with the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, and we debated at great length the decision by the Government that people should be detained without charge for not more than 96 hours—that related to criminal offences. We secured amendments against the Government that ensured that at 36 hours and at 72 hours the police had to go to the courts to get judicial approval for continued detention. That was not so long ago: 25 years. Today, we have had prevention of terrorism legislation allowing seven days, 14 days and now 28 days. It is useful to reflect on what has happened. I am not saying that 96 hours would have been sufficient for terrorists, but we have gone a long way down a particular path and I do not think we should go down it any further. That is why I am against 42 days. I am a former chair of Liberty and a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but even if that were not the case, and I had had any doubts, they would have been fully met by some of the powerful arguments that I have heard this evening. Members of the House will recall that earlier today the former Lord Chancellor and the former Attorney-General were powerful advocates against 42 days. Senior police officers argued that there is no need to have 42 days. The Director of Public Prosecutions, who is not in this House, has argued very clearly that we do not need 42 days. The noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, who has enormous experience of the security services, said that we do not need 42 days. I remember going with a Select Committee to South Africa towards the end of last year and discussing the argument about 42 days. One person said that lengthy detention without charge was too reminiscent of apartheid and that he could not bear the thought that this was even being contemplated in Britain. I do not think we have had any sufficiently convincing evidence in favour of 42 days. If we are to make such a major change in the way we deal with people before they are charged, we need a bit more evidence than the arguments that we have heard so far from the Government. I say that with sadness because I am a supporter of the Government, and I wish they did not put people like me in the position of having to oppose a key feature of their legislation. I would much rather that I was not in this position and could attack the Tories and all sorts of other things, but that is not the world we are in today. I say sincerely that I regret that my Government are doing this when they should not. I am sure that all noble Lords support civil liberties and that they believe passionately that we must do all we can for the security of our people. I am sure that we all agree that the safety of people in this country is very important, but the judgments we are making today about how we give effect to our beliefs will determine the pattern of civil liberties in the future. Even if people supporting the Government believe in civil liberties, I fear their effect will go the other way. It would be a step back in this country if we were to do that. I hope the Government will think again. It is clear that this measure will not go through this House and that the onus will be on the Government to say, ““What can we do to get this measure through?””. Listening to the arguments, it is fairly clear what changes they should make.