Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I rise as the least qualified person to participate in this debate. I have no expertise in the judiciary, the legal profession, the police or the security services. I am setting aside a lesson that I learned a decade ago, when I first became a Member of this House—to know that you have expertise in what you speak about before entering into debate—perhaps to represent the voice of the man or woman on the Clapham omnibus. In my case, that would be the number 24 bus, and my build would not let me get up the stairs. The debates that I have heard in my locality and others have not been as high-flown or profound as ours, but they have asked a series of questions worthy of answer. To begin, why is the issue of principle being raised so much, when there have been several terrorism Acts, and detention before charging has been increased to 28 days? It is not a principle, it is an expedient. The argument is 42 against 28. I have listened today to try to resolve that for myself, and I have heard some fairly extravagant language from Members I would not expect to hear it from. I heard ““endless excess”” and ““draconian””. I took slight offence at the noble Lord, Lord Dear, who quoted Pastor Niemöller, who, as I recall, was talking about a Nazi Government’s behaviour towards their own people. The noble Lord seemed to be making a construction between that and this Bill, which takes matters somewhat further than it should. Questions have to be answered and the debate has to take place. Outside this Chamber—where it is not as rarefied and people are not as endlessly engrossed in what we say as we are—are a whole population who know that they need protection and are not sure that they are getting it. Perhaps because of the media and our own contributions, the population sometimes feel that we think more about the rights of the accused than the rights of the innocent and the victims. If we can clear up one thing in the passage of this Bill, it should be to reassure the section of the public—whether that is 69 or 79 per cent of them—who believe that we need to do more to combat terrorism. They do not seem to be looking for 42 days; they are concerned about changing the law. They are also concerned because they see a kind of war that is different from any that they have seen before. That includes people who have seen two world wars. They see a need for the Government to be armed in order to protect them. They also see the logic of not doing that in the kind of hasty debates that we have had previously, going back to the outbreak of World War Two, when we passed legislation in one 24-hour session. Better to have the debate and decision in the cold light of day than in the hot aftermath of a catastrophe.