Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, it is my privilege to continue my long-standing interest in this matter by serving currently on the Intelligence and Security Committee. Soon after I was appointed last year, the then Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller retired early. I hope that there was no connection. I welcome her to this House and look forward to her further contributions. As the noble Baroness will know, I cannot go into detail about operational matters that I have learnt about through my membership of the ISC. However, I do not need to because, as the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, eloquently pointed out, the then Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller herself said in a speech that there were around 1,600 individuals who she believed posed a direct threat to national security and public safety. As the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, pointed out, the current director-general, Jonathan Evans, said that the figure today would be at least 2,000. I know from the ISC that the police and the security services make huge efforts to apprehend those who are determined to destroy our lives and our way of life. It is our responsibility as parliamentarians to make sure that we give them every help that we can to bring these people to justice. That is why I wholly support the Bill, except in one small but important particular, to which I will return at the end of my speech. First, I express my total support for the extension to 42 days and will explain why it is needed. Like the previous speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Park, I have rewritten my speech in the light of the contributions that have been made. As the Home Secretary and a number of speakers here have said, the trend towards increasingly complex and international terrorist plots is why we have increased the period of pre-charge detention from seven days to 14 and then to 28—specifically to increase the chances of gaining the successful convictions of those terrorists. On each occasion, the extended period has been needed. Eleven individuals have now been held between 14 and 28 days, with three being charged on the 27th and the 28th days. That is leaving things to the last minute, with no margin whatsoever. We can clearly see a growing need for more time; the evidence that people have called for exists. Our task as legislators is to listen in particular to what the operational police—not the retired chief constables and commanders—are telling the Government and to make sure that we provide them with the tools to keep the public safe. Of course, we have to balance this with civil liberties, but surely none of us wants the police to have to release dangerous individuals back into society, perhaps to disappear, just because time has run out. The question, therefore, is whether the Bill maintains the right balance between keeping the public safe and maintaining our hard-earned civil liberties. As the Minister said, the Bill has six important safeguards, which will ensure that the provisions to extend the period of detention without charge are not used lightly. I will not go through them, although I have all six down here. It is cynical and ironic that those people who forced concessions out of the Government in another place are now saying that these safeguards make the provisions unworkable. Is it not outrageous to suggest that? If one looks at the strident objections of some human rights groups—although I have a lot of respect for their work—one might imagine from their statements, and from speeches such as that of the noble Lord, Lord Condon, that here we have another Guantanamo Bay. I oppose totally Guantanamo Bay, as do the British Government. However, to suggest that this is anything like Guantanamo Bay is manifestly absurd. While human rights pressure groups have an important role to play in political debate, they are what they say they are: pressure groups. They look at and specialise in one narrow segment of the picture, not the whole picture. It is our responsibility as legislators to look at the whole picture and to strike the right balance. That brings me to the curious case of Mr David Davis and the excellent comments of my colleague, Andy Burnham. What disappointed me was that media attention was unfortunately focused on the misunderstanding and the overreaction of Miss Chakrabarti, who threatened to sue. The point that Andy was making was to urge people to put things in perspective and to make one simple comparison: he questioned how a man can support the reintroduction of capital punishment and at the same time be so troubled by a two-week extension to the pre-charge detention period that he feels obliged to resign. I do not normally quote Nigel Farage, but I saw him on ““Question Time”” relentlessly challenging David Davis to say what principle was involved in 42 days that was different from 28 days. The difference is only 14 days, which is not a principle but a period of time. I say that to my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith, too. It is not only the operational aspects of the Bill that are important, but also the messages that it sends. First among these is the message that we legislators send to the public. One day after the third anniversary of 7/7, we should not forget the victims of that terrible atrocity and their families and friends. Neither must we forget the wider context of 9/11 in America, 3/11 in Madrid and the other attacks in Bali, Nairobi and elsewhere. We did not hear a word about them from the opposition Front Bench in the introduction today. There was more concern for the civil rights of the alleged terrorists than for the victims and their families. To people who say that this Bill is a recruiting sergeant for terrorists, I say that many of these atrocities took place long before any previous provisions were introduced, so the suggestion is manifestly absurd. We need to send a message to the families and friends of victims that we will provide our police and security services with all that they need to bring the perpetrators and their associates to justice and to prevent future atrocities. This House should also note that the public overwhelmingly support the Bill. According to a YouGov poll in early June, 69 per cent support it, while only 24 per cent oppose it. I find outrageous the personal attacks—repeated by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, today—on properly elected Democratic Unionist Party Members of Parliament. All the innuendo that comes from opposition Members is unbelievable. Finally, a message should also be sent to terrorists and potential terrorists that we are constantly alert to their developments and changes and that we are ready to adapt promptly. As for my one reservation about the Bill, I support my noble friends Lady Ramsay and Lord Robertson and others in their opposition to giving powers to coroners to use intercept as evidence. That blows a gaping hole in the work of the Chilcot committee and the carefully planned timetable to ensure that the work of the security services is not disrupted. I hope that the Government will look at how this can be amended in Committee. Otherwise, I support the Bill and the Government wholly and wholeheartedly.