Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, when Members of another place and your Lordships’ House insist that the 28-day extension provision in the Bill is an assault on fundamental freedoms and an erosion of human rights, one is, I presume, by definition, expected to infer that those of us who feel differently are not concerned with human rights; but that is not the case. Indeed, it is because we are concerned about the most fundamental of all human rights, the right to life. I must speak only for myself, so I say that I support this provision when the most exceptional circumstances prevail, but with the cautionary conditions contained in the Bill, in particular the essential need to have robust judicial oversight before an extension is granted. There is no magic in the number of 42 days, but it seems that some people are beginning to think that that will be the norm—far from it. Such an extension by a senior judge after examination of the case, and questioning of the Crown Prosecution Service and the investigating police officers, could be restricted to 48 or even just 24 hours. Putting a statutory limit of a maximum of 42 days on the granting of an extension is right, however. It has been said that in other countries the permitted time for police to hold a suspect for a terrorism offence is much shorter than in this country. In other countries, including Canada and Australia, I have heard some European countries cited as examples of much restricted time limits. Neither Canada nor Australia has suffered suicide bombings like those that this country experienced in July 2005, when more than 50 people died—52 innocent people and four suicide bombers—and hundreds suffered injuries, including the loss of limbs and head and facial disfigurement. I hope those countries never will. As for the example of other countries, putting the suspect on some spurious minor charge and then handing him over to an examining magistrate so that he can remain in custody for an unspecified period would not be compatible with our traditions of criminal justice and police procedure. We do not do that, and I hope that we never will. The fact that, over this past year, the extension of detention over 14 days has hardly been used is no argument against that provision; it is clear evidence that police act with integrity and as swiftly as possible. They do not hold, and do not wish to hold, persons any longer than the time for which it is absolutely essential either to gather the evidence to charge the suspect or to exonerate him or her. However, the scale and complexity of terrorist investigations is growing at a pace where an extension of detention is becoming more likely. It is significant that the demands on police and the security services in their surveillance of security suspects has grown, and is still growing apace. On 9 November 2006, my noble friend Lady Manningham-Buller, then the director of the Security Service and now a Member of your Lordships’ House, spoke of 1,600 persons of concern to that service. Dame Eliza—I beg your Lordships’ pardon. My noble friend Lady Manningham-Buller said this afternoon that she was unsure of all the conventions of your Lordships’ House. One is that not everybody congratulates a maiden speaker, but I fear I must break that this afternoon. My noble friend and I have headed different services in London but have worked together for many years. I enjoyed her articulate and knowledgeable presentation this afternoon. It may be—I only say ““may””—that we shall end up not agreeing. However, I am sure that we will walk and talk together, as we will with other noble Lords and members of the Government and the public, to resolve this dreadful 21st century conundrum. We will come to a civilised and acceptable way of proceeding. Dame Eliza—I beg your Lordships’ pardon; when one has known somebody for as long as I have known my noble friend, it is difficult to change what you call them. I am sure that she would forgive me; I hope that everyone else will. Two years ago, there were 1,600 persons of interest to her service. Just over one year later, her successor spoke in an early public speech of there being 2,000 individuals of concern—a considerable increase in just one year. Memories are short, and some people seem to think that the terrorist threat has abated. Sadly, that is not so. I am told that the threat level is still classed as severe. As a reminder of the terrorists’ intentions, noble Lords will recall the media coverage of the horrific incident in early June last year at Glasgow airport. It would be wrong not to give credit to the Security Service and police officers for remaining vigilant and determined in the face of our ever-present terrorist threat, often having to cancel their weekly leave at a moment’s notice to carry on with their duty. As a result, there have been a significant number of disruptions to terrorist intentions since 9/11. This year, up to the end of last week, 33 people have been prosecuted, 11 of whom pleaded guilty to the charges. Just a few weeks ago, I watched a television programme on which a senior Member of your Lordships’ House for whom I have great respect eloquently and persuasively put the case against any extension of the present 28-day pre-charge rule, pointing out the harm that could be done to an innocent individual and his family if he were to be kept in custody for 42 days without charge or release. I understand that argument, but there is another side to it. Where lies the greatest harm? Where lies the greatest risk? To keep in custody for more than 28 days a person who is then not charged or who is charged and then found not guilty? Or to release someone strongly suspected of planning to cause casualties and murder, who goes on to commit a horrific offence? Getting the balance right between an individual’s human rights and the protection and safety of the public is a conundrum we must solve. We get it wrong at our peril. In your Lordships' House on Tuesday last, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, referred to the very recent report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and—rightly and wisely, in my respectful but inexperienced view—said that, "““we should take its reports very seriously””.—[Official Report, 1/7/08; col. 200.]" Among other recommendations of that body, he pointed to the committee's suggestion that there should be independent advice to the Government about, "““the impact on suspects of being detained for longer than 14 days””." He also said, "““in our stand against terrorism—no one must ever underestimate the gravity, the sinisterness or the nastiness of the threat””.—[Official Report, 1/7/08; col. 201.]" On his point about the impact upon a suspect being detained for more than 14 days, while that is desirable and useful I must confess that my judgment is coloured having, in my younger days as a working Anti-Terrorist Squad detective, sat at bedsides endeavouring to take statements from those innocent people, including children, who had been injured and sometimes maimed for life; and through attending too many post-mortems of those who died through terrorist action. Another most important point the noble Lord made was that we should not play into the hands of extremist manipulators of the more naïve who are open to such manipulation. The favourite expression that we have often heard is that any extension to pre-charge detention ““will become the recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda””. In my humble and non-political view—I am not a politician—the recruiting sergeant was that we supported President Bush and invaded an Islamic country in the first place. Many of our troops are still in that country. The recruiting sergeant has already done his work. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said on this subject in your Lordships’ House last week—