Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, who has joined us today. She was a star in her previous job, and I hope that she will bring the same qualities here as well. She came to visit me when I was Secretary-General of NATO, and it was a breath of fresh air. I remembered the visit made to me by her predecessor, whom I had asked why my protection in the United Kingdom had been withdrawn, at a time when all of the major NATO nations, and NATO as an organisation, believed that I might conceivably be under threat. He looked at me and said, ““Well, we make our own threat assessments in the United Kingdom and we don’t think you’re under threat. Mind you, it is an imprecise science we use. It is a question of balance and judgment””. I suppose the fact that I am here speaking today shows he got the gamble right, but I did not agree with him at the time. Essentially, we are talking about exactly the same thing today. It is a question of achieving a balance between the liberties that the noble and learned Lord and others have spoken about and the new challenges that we face now and will increasingly face. Judgment as to the appropriate framework of legislation is required. It is better that we discuss this calmly and rationally rather than after the event when public sentiment is strong, and often an artificial all-party consensus can drive us in the wrong direction. I am not a particularly partisan politician at the moment, having achieved near sainthood in Brussels, but there is a role for party politics because it brings out the issues. The outcome of partisan debates is sometimes better than the outcome of a short-term consensus in an emergency. That is why I think the Government have the balance right and that the judgment of the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Minister here today is right, and they should be supported. We are, after all, talking about up to 42 days and not a mandatory 42 days. We are talking about a limit of 42 days but with very significant safeguards built in. In the circumstances, when terrorists are moving at the speed of light and can harness technology and communications in such a way that sometimes the democracies of the world can be too slow, we require that measure. We have an open, clear-cut, transparent and exceptional process that we should support. Like my noble friend Lady Ramsay, I shall touch on the question of intercept. It is a rarefied issue that has boiled around both Houses of Parliament, and the use of intercept evidence in court is a matter of real concern. I declare an interest, although it is not particularly relevant, in as much as I am a senior adviser to Cable & Wireless—the second telecommunications company of this country—which gives me some knowledge of and background to these issues. As a result of debates here and in the other House, the Government decided to set up an all-party committee under Mr John Chilcot, a distinguished former civil servant. That committee deliberated for longer than was anticipated because of the complications involved. It wrestled with the issues and took some time producing a report that was accepted by the Prime Minister and welcomed in all parts of this House and the other place. Nine major safeguards were proposed by the Chilcot committee, designed to ensure that essential national security was not prejudiced should intercept evidence be used as well. I do not think that I have ever done this in my life before, but I would like to quote what Michael Howard said in the other place. He is a member of the Chilcot committee, having replaced the noble Lord, Lord Hurd. In the debate on 10 June, Michael Howard said: "““The Chilcot committee report set out nine requirements that must be met to ensure that the United Kingdom’s strategic intelligence capability is safeguarded, and that the ability of intelligence and law enforcement agencies to protect the public is not harmed if intercept evidence is made admissible””." He went on to refer to the provisions in the Bill regarding coroners’ courts. It does not seem to be a comfortable marriage when he states: "““It therefore came as a surprise, to me at least, to see the provisions of the Bill that allow for the admissibility of intercept evidence in coroners’ inquests without a jury, and to see that there was no reference to those safeguards, and indeed no hint of their necessity””.—[Official Report, Commons 10/6/08; cols. 260-61.]" He was supported in that—I do not wish to single him out—by John Reid, Adam Ingram and John Spellar, all of them former senior Government Ministers. I repeat what my noble friend Lady Ramsay said: a promise was made by Mr McNulty in the other place that amendments would be put forward in this place to deal with the serious concerns expressed by those individuals. I hope that, at the end of the debate, my noble friend will articulate what these amendments will be and how we will safeguard national security. I do not believe that we should seriously compromise the nation’s security by exposing methods, techniques and sources simply to get one or two convictions. To do so would close off a stream of information and intelligence that already has prevented major terrorist attacks in this country. It is a serious issue and I look forward to the reassurances that I am sure we will be given.