Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, I completely accept that it was in place at that time. The extent to which it could be used was not known; the extent to which it became the basis of most terrorist charges was not known. Now that it is known, the basis for an extension to 42 days completely disappears. The test allows charging where the authorities believe that the evidence will come, for example, from the forensic examination of computers from abroad. It means that there is no need for an artificial deadline. We know that the CPS is satisfied with that approach; the Director of Public Prosecutions has made that clear. They know best; they are the ones making the decision about charges that determine whether people who may be terrorists have to be released before the opportunities have existed to gather evidence against them. They do not think that pre-charge detention extensions are required. We have heard from my noble friend Lord West that there were 8,000 exhibits in the Barot case, for example. Those 8,000 exhibits were not contained within the 14 days; they took many months to gather. What is the argument to justify the extension? I quote from the Government’s policy paper in support of the 42 days. It says: "““An extension of pre-charge detention for more than 28 days may be needed in a case where although there is reasonable suspicion that an offence has been committed, and evidence is anticipated to be found in the material to be examined (or expected from overseas), the likelihood of that evidence being available within a reasonable time is not sufficiently certain for the threshold test to be met””." It is rather difficult to know precisely what that means. However, it is suggested that the 14 days between 28 and 42 days will make the difference as to whether it is a reasonable time. I have news for those who put forward that view: it will make no difference. Test it. Suppose it is said that it will take six months to get the evidence. Is any judge going to say, ““I would have allowed the charge but for the fact that you would not get the evidence in five and a half months””? No. That would be a ridiculous assertion, I submit. If someone has been in custody for 28 days and there is not even a reasonable suspicion—this is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas—it seems extremely odd that there could be a basis for detaining him. If the Government had in mind a situation in which the state was overwhelmed by multiple plots and the life of the nation was threatened, the debate could be about whether the Civil Contingencies Act was sufficient. But that was not how the case was framed. The Home Office put the case on the basis that it is to apply, to quote from its paper, to, "““a specific operation exceptionally requiring the powers””." The threshold test provides the best framework. If there is reasonable suspicion, charge the detainee and let the search go on for evidence. That meets the case. The basis for the extension simply is not there. I shall oppose the extension to 42 days root and branch. I say little about the safeguards, save the following. First, on their complexity, we have heard that it needs a chief of police, a Parliament, a judge, an independent lawyer and a DPP before you can charge. If it was necessary to extend the time, I would hope that our police and prosecutors would be focusing on seeing whether there was evidence there, not trying to find their way through the complex flow chart that the Home Office has provided to try to help them through this position. The second problem with the safeguards is that we in this country determine whether people should be detained on the basis of a judge’s view after analysis of the evidence. I find it worrying that somebody could be detained in prison on the basis of a deal done with another political party. That is something that we have never accepted in this country before. The safeguards are obviously defective, but I shall vote against the whole extension to 42 days because I consider that no proper basis has been shown for it. We should address the issue in this House on the basis of a rational and open debate on the merits of the proposal. Only that rational debate will allow a true consensus to form and only in that way do we demonstrate both our determination to defeat terrorism and the strength of our values in doing so.